What does AB De Villiers need achieve to surpass Viv Richards as the ODI's greatest

[srbhkshk]

The majority of objective stats are in Ponting's favour though. There is noway AB will score 4000 more runs, I doubt he can make 30 more 50s and he will not win 3 world cups. Ponting did all that and more while being captain.

Like I said, the avg and SRs are inflated now. There was a time when an average of 40 in ODIs was like an avg of 50 in tests, that just isn't the case now. Yes Starc looks to be a terrific bowler but he is early in his career and miles off guys like Murali, Waqar, Wasim, Steyn and so on who Ponting had to contend with. Plus the quantity of top ODI bowlers was higher during Ponting's heyday than it is now.

So there are a lot of factors but I won't go over it anymore because it seems like I am belittling a player who is genuinely one of my favourites.

I would like to add Amla to the discussion. The rate at which he has scored runs is even superior to the likes of AB and the supposed modern star of Kohli (a way off being great imo). I think he will get to 7000 ODI runs 10 innings faster than Kohli and be the fastest overall across the board from 2000-7000. That is remarkable for a guy at one stage thought to be "too slow."

This is a self defeating argument, if # of runs / 50s / world cups is what makes a player great then you have to necessarily consider Kohli a better player than ABD and Amla because he has basically the same amount of them as those two while still having a 4-5 year buffer in age.

 

[ankitj]

You can't compare with stats for starters. Viv played in an era when ODI average of 30-32 was considered decent in one day cricket. When players didn't wear helmets. When bowlers could bowl more than one bouncer an over in limited overs cricket. In ODIs, winning a world cup matters as far as legacy goes, just as winning an NBA Championship matters in basketball. If AB won 2 world cups, he might have the same aura. Or maybe if he chewed gum like Viv.

Not true. 40 was the benchmark for excellent players back then too. Greenish, Chappell, Abbas, Jones all averaged 40+

 

[Pratters]

That is four players over 25 years. 40 was exceptional, not decent in the 70s and 80s. Even in 90s, averaging 40 was great. If some one averaged 30-32, it was fine. Trust me.

 

[Burgey]

Get past Kohli? You real? Kohli is non existent when you count ABD record since his(kohli's) debut 2008.

Complete record:
Kohli:

innings 171
not outs 25
runs 7755
HS 183
avg 53.11
balls faced 8544
strike rate 90.76
100s 27
50s 39

ABD:

innings 207
not outs 38
runs 9175
HS 162*
avg 54.28
balls faced 9160
strike rate 100.16
100s 24
50s 52


Kohli, like ABD give him head start into 3 years experience( in his case it should be after 2012)

Kohli since 2012(given 3 years jump)

innings 85
not outs 13
runs 3892
HS 154*
avg 54.05
balls faced 4083
strike rate 95.32
100s 14
50s 18

meanwhile ABD record since 2008(after 3 years of his debut)

innigns 145
not outs 32
runs 7137
HS 162*
avg 63.15
balls faced 6791
strike rate 105.09
100s 21
50s 40


this is not even a competition, ABD squashes VK thoroughly, it gets worse as years go by: you can choose any year after 2008, whether since 2012, 2009 or 2013 the gap gets bigger as ABD avg climbs up with the years and SR goes up to 115!

So the only excuse I'll give you is of a deterred cricket knowledge

I think this is a little unfair tbh. Kohli has an insane record chasing, even very imposing totals. I think he's every bit the ODI player ABdV is, arguably better, though they're both pretty amazing.

I think Viv is the most consistently destructive batsman I've ever seen, taking into account eras, accepted norms etc. Part of that is probably due to his presence - Viv was all of 178 cm (5'10") but on the field he looked a giant just because of his presence. It's actually pretty hard to adequately put into words what it was like watching that bloke live. He was a freak. I'd walk from here to Perth to watch him play a hook shot rather than walk across the road to see other blokes score a hundred.

 

[ankitj]

That is four players over 25 years. 40 was exceptional, not decent in the 70s and 80s. Even in 90s, averaging 40 was great. If some one averaged 30-32, it was fine. Trust me.

Dude. Do some research before positing that kind of stuff. During Vichar Richards's playing years. ODI batting average across all batsmen was 29.38. How could 30-32 average for specialists be considered good?

 

[Pratters]

Link me to the stat. I know because I watched enough cricket and have followed enough cricket. Trust me when I am saying this. Also, Ijaz Ahmed and Ramiz Raja played 250 and 198 ODIs and they averaged 32 each.

 

[srbhkshk]

Dude. Do some research before positing that kind of stuff. During Vichar Richards's playing years. ODI batting average across all batsmen was 29.38. How could 30-32 average for specialists be considered good?

Aren't Yuvi/Raina considered good ODI bats even though both average in 30s? (Also when you say all batsmen, does it include everyone?)

 

[HashiraMadara]

Dude. Do some research before positing that kind of stuff. During Vichar Richards's playing years. ODI batting average across all batsmen was 29.38. How could 30-32 average for specialists be considered good?

India considered Sehwag a ODI legend as well with a 35 odd average. Exceptionals only were above 40 then. Viv reached 40s in his dying years! He was mid 50s 90% of his career coming from 62.

 

[HashiraMadara]

I think this is a little unfair tbh. Kohli has an insane record chasing, even very imposing totals. I think he's every bit the ODI player ABdV is, arguably better, though they're both pretty amazing.

I think Viv is the most consistently destructive batsman I've ever seen, taking into account eras, accepted norms etc. Part of that is probably due to his presence - Viv was all of 178 cm (5'10") but on the field he looked a giant just because of his presence. It's actually pretty hard to adequately put into words what it was like watching that bloke live. He was a freak. I'd walk from here to Perth to watch him play a hook shot rather than walk across the road to see other blokes score a hundred.

Kohli fans and their persistence in "but Kohli is a chaser". So 1 skill makes him better? WTF?

Kohli averages 41 batting first in the 21st century. Let that sink in your head! The man is averaging 64 when chasing(number 1), you know who followers that at number 2? It's non other than ABD at 56 while chasing at a better strike rate! When batting first you know who is number 2 again in average? ABD at 52(below Amla). So ABD is top 2 in average whether batting first or chasing so I have no idea why is a Kohli fan even daring here because when batting first his batting average is not even top 20!

It gets worse when you start counting ABD ODI stats since his peak Virat debut 2008, he averages above 70 while chasing and 56 batting first, completely wiping Kohli out whether chasing or setting a target with an all better strike rate!

Kohli fans shouldn't even go into ABD debates with ODI or Test. They must stick to T20I where Kohli didn't wonders.

 

[honestbharani]

Dhoni? Well it's hard to convince anyone that you're a GOAT when you literally have 0 100s outside the subcontinent...

Its hard to convince people who do not understand how ODI cricket works, yes,. Not so much with those who do.

 

[OverratedSanity]

Kohli fans and their persistence in "but Kohli is a chaser". So 1 skill makes him better? WTF?

Kohli averages 41 batting first in the 21st century. Let that sink in your head! The man is averaging 64 when chasing(number 1), you know who followers that at number 2? It's non other than ABD at 56 while chasing at a better strike rate! When batting first you know who is number 2 again in average? ABD at 52(below Amla). So ABD is top 2 in average whether batting first or chasing so I have no idea why is a Kohli fan even daring here because when batting first his batting average is not even top 20!

Take a chill pill bud.

 

[honestbharani]

The majority of objective stats are in Ponting's favour though. There is noway AB will score 4000 more runs, I doubt he can make 30 more 50s and he will not win 3 world cups. Ponting did all that and more while being captain.

Like I said, the avg and SRs are inflated now. There was a time when an average of 40 in ODIs was like an avg of 50 in tests, that just isn't the case now. Yes Starc looks to be a terrific bowler but he is early in his career and miles off guys like Murali, Waqar, Wasim, Steyn and so on who Ponting had to contend with. Plus the quantity of top ODI bowlers was higher during Ponting's heyday than it is now.

So there are a lot of factors but I won't go over it anymore because it seems like I am belittling a player who is genuinely one of my favourites.

I would like to add Amla to the discussion. The rate at which he has scored runs is even superior to the likes of AB and the supposed modern star of Kohli (a way off being great imo). I think he will get to 7000 ODI runs 10 innings faster than Kohli and be the fastest overall across the board from 2000-7000. That is remarkable for a guy at one stage thought to be "too slow."

You do understand that batting at #3 and #5 are totally different beasts in ODI cricket right? There is no such thing as objective stats coz going by stats alone, Sachin is EASILY the greatest ODI batsman of all time, which for some reason, you dont seem to acknowledge.

 

[HashiraMadara]

Its hard to convince people who do not understand how ODI cricket works, yes,. Not so much with those who do.

By the way Lance Klusner has more centuries than Dhoni outside his continent batting at 9.

 

[harsh.ag]

Burgey being called a #KohliFan has elevated this thread to the upper stratosphere of awesome. Good job internet!

 

[Adders]

I love that Burgey has been tagged as a Kohli fan

Edit:

Bloody Harsh!!

 

[honestbharani]

By the way Lance Klusner has more centuries than Dhoni outside his continent batting at 9.

Riight.. link me to these great hundreds he made batting at 9.


And funny how "outside his continent" is suddenly a measure of batting greatness.. Of course you can't use outside his country

 

[Black_Warrior]

Lol this is exactly what CW needed - a vociferous SA fan to balance it out with the Aussie, English and NZ supporters

 

[honestbharani]

What's worse is he is gonna tag some of us rabid real AB fans as his haters.

 

[Black_Warrior]

Burgey vs HashiraMadara is going to be fun
Battle of the AB fanboys

 

[viriya]

IMO there are 5 players who are undisputed top 5 in terms of batting - Viv , Sachin , Kohli, ABD and Ponting -
Viv (The fear factor and the World Cups + chewed gum)
Sachin (The longevity and playing against some of the best bowlers the world had to offer.)
Kohli (Best ever chaser)
ABD (Statistical freak)
Ponting (Not quite as good as the above four but is something of a mix of all of them.)

Separating between these 5 is hard, Ponting imo comes last but was just as good as any on his day, all the others have their own distinct strengths so you could claim one to be better than the other but there could be just about as good arguments for the reverse.

You are missing Dhoni, Lara and Sanga in that list. The top 3 (AB, Viv, Sachin) are clearly ahead of the rest.