What does AB De Villiers need achieve to surpass Viv Richards as the ODI's greatest

[Shri]

Damn, I wish I had your confidence when I was new here.

Which time?

 

[OverratedSanity]

How original.

I prefer it when you make morbid posts detailing how your grandparents died.

 

[Shri]

I only had 4 ffs.

 

[srbhkshk]

IMO there are 5 players who are undisputed top 5 in terms of batting - Viv , Sachin , Kohli, ABD and Ponting -
Viv (The fear factor and the World Cups + chewed gum)
Sachin (The longevity and playing against some of the best bowlers the world had to offer.)
Kohli (Best ever chaser)
ABD (Statistical freak)
Ponting (Not quite as good as the above four but is something of a mix of all of them.)

Separating between these 5 is hard, Ponting imo comes last but was just as good as any on his day, all the others have their own distinct strengths so you could claim one to be better than the other but there could be just about as good arguments for the reverse.

 

[ankitj]

OS to stay out of this thread, please.

 

[honestbharani]

Lol @ Bevan and Dhoni not even making the convos here

 

[andruid]

Ganguly, Saurav

 

[tobe_ornot2]

I think AB, Viv and Sachin all clearly have better ODI records than Ponting. The GOAT conversation only involves those 3 and imo just AB and Viv now.

Ponting has nearly 4000 more ODI runs than AB, 9 more centuries and 30 more half centuries...30! His highest score is also higher, more world cup centuries, most of them as captain oh and...you know, the little matter of 3 world cups. Not 1, not 2, 3!

ABD has a better overal average and sr but in the modern era of extremely flat pitches, mediocre fast bowlers and inflated averages, that is not surprising.

Now, don't get me wrong, ABD is one of the finest ODI cricketers of all time and a certain top 10 ODI batsman, possibly even top 5 but there is a big gulf between the group of Ponting and Viv and someone like ABD. It is a bridge that ABD will likely never cross in his career.

 

[HashiraMadara]

Lol @ Bevan and Dhoni not even making the convos here

Dhoni? Well it's hard to convince anyone that you're a GOAT when you literally have 0 100s outside the subcontinent...

 

[HashiraMadara]

Ganguly, Saurav

Sure, a world class batsman who literally couldn't play shot ball at all. Not a bad option I must say but like most subcontinent players he literally did nothing outside that continent. Tendulkar, Virat Kohli, Sunil Gavaskar and Inzimam Ul-haq are the only players I'd point out as good even outside subcontinent vs fresh pace. You might throw a bit of Saeed Anwar, Javed Miandad, Rohit, Zaheer, Abbas and Mohammad Arzharuddin as capable of traveling. The rest even Dravid were paltry when leaving their respective countries, even Sanga cashed on fodder attacks.

Ponting has nearly 4000 more ODI runs than AB, 9 more centuries and 30 more half centuries...30! His highest score is also higher, more world cup centuries, most of them as captain oh and...you know, the little matter of 3 world cups. Not 1, not 2, 3!

ABD has a better overal average and sr but in the modern era of extremely flat pitches, mediocre fast bowlers and inflated averages, that is not surprising.

Now, don't get me wrong, ABD is one of the finest ODI cricketers of all time and a certain top 10 ODI batsman, possibly even top 5 but there is a big gulf between the group of Ponting and Viv and someone like ABD. It is a bridge that ABD will likely never cross in his career.

Wait... You are saying Ponting had more this and that etc... you realize ABD has played less than 220 ODI innings? Being the fastest to the number of runs he is in. So that's like saying Tendulkar has 30 more centuries than Viv, 12000 more runs, a higher high school even though lower average blah blah so he is better failing to state the most obvious: he played an awfully more games than him! Given the record Viv and ABD have, if they play same amount of games chances are they will double that record. Secondly, you can't run and cry about "changes of times" about a guy who retired not more than a 5 years ago having more tha 10 runs less average than ABD. Ricky couldn't even catch Sachin strike rate of 88 and average yet Sachin started 1988! As for World Cup number of centuries, that's the same as McGrath number of wickets, its subjected to the ridiculous amount of World Cup games that Australian team played because if you count by record ABD World Cup record is only second to 1 person. You fail to realize ABD bats at 4/5. Frankly Ponting and Lara were better Test batsmen than ODI ones to me.

 

[Burner]

Ponting has nearly 4000 more ODI runs than AB, 9 more centuries and 30 more half centuries...30! His highest score is also higher, more world cup centuries, most of them as captain oh and...you know, the little matter of 3 world cups. Not 1, not 2, 3!

ABD has a better overal average and sr but in the modern era of extremely flat pitches, mediocre fast bowlers and inflated averages, that is not surprising.

Now, don't get me wrong, ABD is one of the finest ODI cricketers of all time and a certain top 10 ODI batsman, possibly even top 5 but there is a big gulf between the group of Ponting and Viv and someone like ABD. It is a bridge that ABD will likely never cross in his career.

For me AB has already crossed Ponting but I can see why someone would have Ponting ahead. But I don't think it's fair to say that he'll never cross Ponting even if you believe he's not there yet.

 

[Red]

This is not something that can be argued with straight stats. Especially not comparing two ODI players with careers four decades apart. Comparative stats may be a bit more enlightening though. And they both have high enough averages for their respective careers to acknowledge basic parity there. So if we're talking SR, it might be worth looking at what their peers did in their respective eras...

Top scorers in Viv's era 74 - 91

Just looking at the top scorers from this era, we see that most SR's were somewhere from the high 50s to the 70s.

Haynes - 64
Miandad - 68
Border - 70
Greenidge 65
Jones - 76
Richardson - 64
Marsh - 57
Wright - 57
Lamb - 75
Gooch - 63

Viv ended with a SR of 90, which is significantly more than the other top ten or so of his era.


Top scorers in AB DeVillier's era 2007-17

Sanga - 81
Dilshan - 88
Kohli - 90
Dhoni - 87
Amla - 89
Jayawardene - 82
Taylor - 81
Guptill - 87
Iqbal - 77
Clarke - 77

So on the whole, 80s or 90s are acceptable in the modern era, while AB strikes at 100.

 

[AndrewB]

Never wore helmet, never batted in a power play, no field restrictions, avg pitch sizes were bigger and to top it off he had thinner bats.

His ODI average is something of wonders.

(referring, of course, to Viv Richards).

Just as an aside: "no field restrictions" isn't true for most of his career - they were introduced in Australia in 1980 (according to Wiki).

For his era, his strike rate is probably more remarkable than his average; if you look at the batsmen with 2000+ runs before the 90s (there are 29 in total), the top averages are

48.43 - Viv Richards
47.62 - Zaheer Abbas
46.81 - Gordon Greenidge
45.43 - Dean Jones
44.15 - Javed Miandad
43.41 - Desmond Haynes
42.66 - Allan Lamb
41.61 - Graham Gooch
40.18 - Greg Chappell
40.04 - Geoff Marsh

so Viv is top, but by no means head and shoulders above the rest. (For just the 80s, he actually drops to 5th - his average was boosted by a couple of incredible years in 1976 and 1979).

The top strike rates are

101.44 - Kapil Dev
90.96 - Viv Richards
86.14 - Saleem Malik
84.80 - Zaheer Abbas
76.01 - David Gower
75.70 - Greg Chappell
75.57 - Dean Jones
75.25 - Allan Lamb
74.87 - Imran Khan
74.62 - Martin Crowe

Apart from the lower-middle order slasher Kapil (average 26), who isn't really playing the same role in the team, there's only two other batsmen scoring at anywhere near Viv's rate - the rest would be scoring about 40-50 runs less over the course of a 50-over innings.

 

[tobe_ornot2]

For me AB has already crossed Ponting but I can see why someone would have Ponting ahead. But I don't think it's fair to say that he'll never cross Ponting even if you believe he's not there yet.

I'm not sure how AB has crossed Ponting? Care to provide any reasons to counter the huge advantages that Ponting has (more runs, more 100s, more 50s, more world wins, more eveyrthing apart from avg and sr). If we're looking at purely how the two played, I think Ponting was better in his ability as well , especially on more difficult pitches against better bowlers. There is no objective measure to class AB higher. I just can't find it and this is coming from a massive AB fan. I hold him to be the best ODI bat of the last several years/his gen (however a gen is definedi n cricket) but he is not better than Ponting.

(referring, of course, to Viv Richards).

Just as an aside: "no field restrictions" isn't true for most of his career - they were introduced in Australia in 1980 (according to Wiki).

For his era, his strike rate is probably more remarkable than his average; if you look at the batsmen with 2000+ runs before the 90s (there are 29 in total), the top averages are

48.43 - Viv Richards
47.62 - Zaheer Abbas
46.81 - Gordon Greenidge
45.43 - Dean Jones
44.15 - Javed Miandad
43.41 - Desmond Haynes
42.66 - Allan Lamb
41.61 - Graham Gooch
40.18 - Greg Chappell
40.04 - Geoff Marsh

so Viv is top, but by no means head and shoulders above the rest. (For just the 80s, he actually drops to 5th - his average was boosted by a couple of incredible years in 1976 and 1979).

The top strike rates are

101.44 - Kapil Dev
90.96 - Viv Richards
86.14 - Saleem Malik
84.80 - Zaheer Abbas
76.01 - David Gower
75.70 - Greg Chappell
75.57 - Dean Jones
75.25 - Allan Lamb
74.87 - Imran Khan
74.62 - Martin Crowe

Apart from the lower-middle order slasher Kapil (average 26), who isn't really playing the same role in the team, there's only two other batsmen scoring at anywhere near Viv's rate - the rest would be scoring about 40-50 runs less over the course of a 50-over innings.

Remarkable the quality of ODI strikers Pakistan used to produce...and now the team can barely get batsmen striking at 70.

 

[Burner]

I'm not sure how AB has crossed Ponting? Care to provide any reasons to counter the huge advantages that Ponting has (more runs, more 100s, more 50s, more world wins, more eveyrthing apart from avg and sr). If we're looking at purely how the two played, I think Ponting was better in his ability as well , especially on more difficult pitches against better bowlers. There is no objective measure to class AB higher. I just can't find it and this is coming from a massive AB fan. I hold him to be the best ODI bat of the last several years/his gen (however a gen is definedi n cricket) but he is not better than Ponting.
.

De Villiers scores a century every 8.6 innings when Ponting does it every 12 innings. There's no reason that he won't have more centuries at the rate that he's going. He has at least a few years ahead of him and I'll tip him to get ahead of Ponting's century tally and by a large number of games.

There is plenty of objective reasons why AB is better than Ponting. His average being 10 runs higher and his SR being higher by 20 runs for instance. That the present day bowlers are somehow inferior is a myth. Mitchell Starc for instance magically happens to have the best stats for a ODI bowler ever even without taking into account that he bowls on "highways" every game.

But like I said I can understand why someone would prefer Ponting. He came in at number 3, where he could have impacted more games than someone like De Villiers.

 

[SillyCowCorner1]

Sorry, but that man Jayasuriya is the best odi player of all time.

 

[Athlai]

A time machine and more swagger. It's a perception thing IMO.

 

[tobe_ornot2]

De Villiers scores a century every 8.6 innings when Ponting does it every 12 innings. There's no reason that he won't have more centuries at the rate that he's going. He has at least a few years ahead of him and I'll tip him to get ahead of Ponting's century tally and by a large number of games.

There is plenty of objective reasons why AB is better than Ponting. His average being 10 runs higher and his SR being higher by 20 runs for instance. That the present day bowlers are somehow inferior is a myth. Mitchell Starc for instance magically happens to have the best stats for a ODI bowler ever even without taking into account that he bowls on "highways" every game.

But like I said I can understand why someone would prefer Ponting. He came in at number 3, where he could have impacted more games than someone like De Villiers.

The majority of objective stats are in Ponting's favour though. There is noway AB will score 4000 more runs, I doubt he can make 30 more 50s and he will not win 3 world cups. Ponting did all that and more while being captain.

Like I said, the avg and SRs are inflated now. There was a time when an average of 40 in ODIs was like an avg of 50 in tests, that just isn't the case now. Yes Starc looks to be a terrific bowler but he is early in his career and miles off guys like Murali, Waqar, Wasim, Steyn and so on who Ponting had to contend with. Plus the quantity of top ODI bowlers was higher during Ponting's heyday than it is now.

So there are a lot of factors but I won't go over it anymore because it seems like I am belittling a player who is genuinely one of my favourites.

I would like to add Amla to the discussion. The rate at which he has scored runs is even superior to the likes of AB and the supposed modern star of Kohli (a way off being great imo). I think he will get to 7000 ODI runs 10 innings faster than Kohli and be the fastest overall across the board from 2000-7000. That is remarkable for a guy at one stage thought to be "too slow."

 

[tobe_ornot2]

Hashim Amla-

6880 runs
An average of 50 with a sr of 90
24 centuries
31 fifties

All the while batting as an opener, probably the most challenging position in any format. Surely top 10 all time in ODIs?

 

[Black_Warrior]

So Sir Viv comes at:

innings 167
not outs 24
runs 6721
HS 189*
avg 47.00
balls faced 7451
strike rate 90.20
100s 11
50s 45

He played those 167 innings over 10 years. Missed a few matches meaning it was never consistent to get an ODI series those days. Never wore helmet, never batted in a power play, no field restrictions, avg pitch sizes were bigger and to top it off he had thinner bats.

His ODI average is something of wonders. His debut was in 1975 by 1980 with over 1000 runs and 26 matches, he was averaging over 60. it gradually decreased a bit, by 1987 he had played over 100 ODI matches and innings with almost 5000 ODI runs with average still above 50. As old as he was he refused to give up the game. Slogged his way to 167 ODI innings, his averaged dropping to 47 in the end. One thing remained constant, his strike rate at 90.

So the word King Viv clearly comes from striking the ball at 90 across all bowlers over a decade with no slowing down.

Such a record seemed untouchable until ABD. Now here is a contrast, ABD did the opposite of Viv Richards. Started slow and average, later on rocketed and left everyone behind by some gap.

AB De Villiers:

innings 207
not outs 38
runs 9175
HS 162*
avg 54.28
balls faced 9160
strike rate 100.16
100s 24
50s 52

Now the man seems to be destined for greatness. Let's why I compare the two and ask this question. Some advantages ABD has: thicker bats, smaller grounds, helmet, power plays, fielding restrictions...

As the opposite of Viv Richards, his first 3 years in old were quite average and comparable to his peers. His first ODI 2005, after 3 years he had played 62 matches accumulated 2002 runs at 37.07. You won't guess what happens next. After this horrid start to a career the man changed batting position to 4/5, his record from 2008 - now is
innigns 145
not outs 32
runs 7137
HS 162*
avg 63.15
balls faced 6791
strike rate 105.09
100s 21
50s 40

this seems what a current batsman must have to finally surpass Lord Viv isn't it? Avg of 63 and strike rate of 105 over 9 years and 145 innings! If you are watching him right now, he isn't slowing down but keeps on piling runs over runs!

When you're comparing players across era, you have to contextualise the stats even more than usual.

AB averages 54 in an era where a lot of batsmen are averaging 54. Agreed that he did start averaging 54 a few years ago when there was relatively a lesser number of players.
This era of LO cricket has seen the highest totals, multiple 400 plus totals, highest run chases, higher economy rates, more power play, more field restrictions and overall a more batting friendly environment. These are not to undermine AB. You can only be judged by what you're against and AB is the best in his era.

Now as far as AB surpassing Viv is concerned, there are a couple of factors and going across era, you will need a bit more in the bank and not just numbers but a specific kind of stats.

People have mentioned the World Cup already but I don't think the point was made clearly. It doesn't just mean being in a World Cup winning squad as you rightly mentioned, there are likes of Munaf Patel and Ashish Nehra who have been in a World Cup winning squad along with an Ijaz Ahmed and Paul Reiffel and no one hails them as ODI greats.

The World Cup is important simply because more people watch it, and that makes your performance count and get recognized and remembered far far more than any other performance.

Yuvraj is not a great player overall in terms of his record but will always be remembered for his feats during World Cup 2011.

Viv not only has 2 World Cup wins but a performance like this which while I never watched, have read about and heard of on numerous occasions.

Final: England v West Indies at Lord's, Jun 23, 1979 | Cricket Scorecard | ESPN Cricinfo


AB doesn't quite have that. Yet. It doesn't even have to be a World Cup win necessarily, but even a Tendulkar 03 WC would be good.