South Africa team selection

[Shady Slim]

the thing that the south africans have done over the years is have someone always stand up to save their rear shelves, something australia haven't really had the luxury of over a prolonged period of time lately

just look at what bavuma did last test when his spot was under question and the team was 94/6, and even what say maharaj and the vern did in perth, so domingo's got reason to pick and stick

 

[Marius]

Loved watching Cullinan in full flow. Played well v everyone bar Australia really. Loved India and Newlands. But always remember his class innings when Devon Malcolm went mental at the Oval.

In many ways him and Gibbs are similar. Both can be perceived to have prickly personalities. Both were teenage prodigy's who debuted at 16 in FC cricket. Both were stroke-makers who despite averaging in the 40's in test cricket may have under-achieved considering their natural talent.

Yes, that's true.

But apart from both being prickly characters, but there was clearly no love lost between the two of them, as Gibbs's autobiography makes very clear.

 

[Marius]

Loved watching Cullinan in full flow. Played well v everyone bar Australia really. Loved India and Newlands. But always remember his class innings when Devon Malcolm went mental at the Oval.

In many ways him and Gibbs are similar. Both can be perceived to have prickly personalities. Both were teenage prodigy's who debuted at 16 in FC cricket. Both were stroke-makers who despite averaging in the 40's in test cricket may have under-achieved considering their natural talent.

Also, this hundred against SL when Murali was bowling hand grenades.

1st Test: Sri Lanka v South Africa at Galle, Jul 20-23, 2000 | Cricket Scorecard | ESPN Cricinfo

 

[SeamUp]

the thing that the south africans have done over the years is have someone always stand up to save their rear shelves, something australia haven't really had the luxury of over a prolonged period of time lately

just look at what bavuma did last test when his spot was under question and the team was 94/6, and even what say maharaj and the vern did in perth, so domingo's got reason to pick and stick

Suppose that is the beauty of test cricket as a team is tested more as a unit like he is saying there.

Like for anything, the resolve will be tested with a loss.

 

[SeamUp]

Yes, that's true.

But apart from both being prickly characters, but there was clearly no love lost between the two of them, as Gibbs's autobiography makes very clear.

Gibbs was my favourite to watch but I found it hard to have any respect for him and the autobiography ripping into everybody really was the final straw.

Never read it. What sort of things were said of Cullinan and co.

 

[SeamUp]

Also, this hundred against SL when Murali was bowling hand grenades.

1st Test: Sri Lanka v South Africa at Galle, Jul 20-23, 2000 | Cricket Scorecard | ESPN Cricinfo

That innings was a class apart. He had that sort of genius to him.

Did we draw that series ?

 

[Marius]

That innings was a class apart. He had that sort of genius to him.

Did we draw that series ?

Yup, won the second Test by seven runs (I still remember, Murali was given out, caught off the pad to end the match) and the third Test was drawn.

 

[Marius]

Gibbs was my favourite to watch but I found it hard to have any respect for him and the autobiography ripping into everybody really was the final straw.

Never read it. What sort of things were said of Cullinan and co.

I also didn't read the whole thing, just skimmed it.

But I read the bits about Cullinan. It was basically that Cullinan was a bit of a headboy compared to Gibbs, and didn't like jolling as much etc. I think they were just two guys who just clashed.

Gibbs also says it was Cullinan who bust him, Telemachus, Nel, Kemp for smoking weed on the one WI tour.

 

[SeamUp]

Yup, won the second Test by seven runs (I still remember, Murali was given out, caught off the pad to end the match) and the third Test was drawn.

For some reason I seem to remember Jonty playing a crucial knock as well.

After this tour our luck in Sri Lanka took a turn for the worst. Jayasuriya, Jayawardene, Sangakkara made sure of that.

That is why the recent test series win there felt so good because we started well there after re-admission in our first 2 or 3 series.

 

[SeamUp]

I also didn't read the whole thing, just skimmed it.

But I read the bits about Cullinan. It was basically that Cullinan was a bit of a headboy compared to Gibbs, and didn't like jolling as much etc. I think they were just two guys who just clashed.

Gibbs also says it was Cullinan who bust him, Telemachus, Nel, Kemp for smoking weed on the one WI tour.

A bit petty. I wonder who the other headboys would have been.

They say Gaz Kirsten liked a bit of a bender and then Duncan Fletcher got a hold of him.

 

[CapeTown Guy]

Cullinan was my favourite player growing up as well. Was pretty miffed that he didnt get a call for the 1992 World Cup squad, and then the situation around his return to the side a decade later, which ultimately didnt happen.

For about 5 years around the turn of the century, he was by far our best player. Until JK became a behemoth. That 90 at The Oval is probably the best innings I've seen, irrespective of what happened in the match.

 

[SeamUp]

By the sounds of it seemed like they just wanted to relieve some pressure from Cook and give de Bruyn exposure to a test before England.

In my opinion it should have been JP Duminy needing relieving more, so de Bruyn can play in the middle order.

 

[StephenZA]

By the sounds of it seemed like they just wanted to relieve some pressure from Cook and give de Bruyn exposure to a test before England.

In my opinion it should have been JP Duminy needing relieving more, so de Bruyn can play in the middle order.

Agree... but I think they kept JP because he can play as the extra spinner and thus keep the 3 seamers; they seemed uncertain about how the pitch would play.

 

[SeamUp]

Agree... but I think they kept JP because he can play as the extra spinner and thus keep the 3 seamers; they seemed uncertain about how the pitch would play.

I've been thinking about the spin v swing/seam thing and even it spins from day 3 which will be something with all the moisture around I think we could ahve got away without JP's bowling.

But you right, they clearly thought along those lines with not playing Piedt.

 

[TT Boy]

Did de Bruyn never open for the Titans in FC cricket? Know he has done that in limited overs cricket, so opening wasn't much of a stretch and Dean Elgar use to bat at three domestically as well. Poor dismissal mind but not enough to suggest it’s because he is a middle order batsman, Cook has been guilty of the same offence this series and he is a "proper" opener.

 

[StephenZA]

Did de Bruyn never open for the Titans in FC cricket? Know he has done that in limited overs cricket, so opening wasn't much of a stretch and Dean Elgar use to bat at three domestically as well. Poor dismissal mind but not enough to suggest it’s because he is a middle order batsman, Cook has been guilty of the same offence this series and he is a "proper" opener.

Agree, it looked more like nerves, understandably. Think he currently bats 3 for franchise and has definitely opened for them...

 

[SeamUp]

Did de Bruyn never open for the Titans in FC cricket? Know he has done that in limited overs cricket, so opening wasn't much of a stretch and Dean Elgar use to bat at three domestically as well. Poor dismissal mind but not enough to suggest it’s because he is a middle order batsman, Cook has been guilty of the same offence this series and he is a "proper" opener.

He got his chance there in 2014/15 for a few games.

It was nerves too but you have more chance of getting away with that sort of nothing shot batting in the middle order (3/4/5) but it is more the mind-set. When last did he open ? How does he go about it ?

It shouldn't have happened.

Elgar always an opener in 4-day cricket ? Defo batted 3/4 in limited overs cricket.

 

[StephenZA]

Didn`t Elgar bat 3 until he realized that he had a better chance to get into the SA team as an opener and then moved to open at franchise... DeVillers also opened for awhile at franchise and international level, before dropping to 4/5.

I would prefer that de Bruyn had started in the middle order batting 4/5 but at the same time I think he is good enough to handle opening and if that is the position the coach asks you to play then that`s were you play. I don`t think that this will break him as a player, his class will tell in the end, for me he is a better player than van Zyl. I personally would have dropped Duminy, and if that was not an option and they wanted to drop Cook for the match I would have asked Bavuma to open.

 

[SeamUp]

Debut season for Elgar as a teenager was 06/07 and he batted 5/6 for 2 games and opened the majority where he scored 225 opening the batting. So basically he has been opening for 10 years in FC cricket.

Personally I think it can effect you mentally. It may not but it can. We don't know how some react to failure. Players are different. He may be better than van Zyl but I would say van Zyl had the more complete record before getting his Proteas debut by at least scoring runs in the sub-continent for the 'A' side where as de Bruyn failed badly on the 'A' tour 2 seasons ago. Plus scoring runs when our domestic cricket was arguably stronger as he debuted in 06/07 like Elgar.

We can't keep chopping and changing middle order players to fit roles due to balance of the team. That includes Bavuma. de Bruyn is talented but has really hard hands like a lot of young highveld batsman which will be tested at international level.

Personally I think this issue needs to be addressed after this test match and looked at quite seriously before England. They either back Cook or move on to Markram/Kuhn. Next home season starts with Bangladesh which also may sway their decision-making.

 

[SeamUp]

Basically I think we should let openers make openers failings. Cook may have got out doing the same thing but at least let him face the sword of his own fight.

Whereas van Zyl, Bavuma and de Bruyn are facing a battle that they are not accustomed to and that is the new Red Cherry. Let them pay for middle-order failings and not an openers.