Mike Hesson - Is it time?

[Zinzan]

The on field character of the team seems to have completely faded, the fielding standards are laughable and it corresponds with the bowling plans being laughable too.

I don't see how Hesson can work with a guy like Williamson, Hesson would be a great foil for the likes of Dion Nash, Chris Cairns, McCullum, Crowe - assertive, extroverted people who drive themselves and their team while they're on the field. He's not a great coach for guys like Williamson, Fleming, Taylor, Vettori who are more naturally introverted characters.

Problem is, we've got no one else in the team that could take the captaincy other than Taylor, at which point you look at the deficiencies in the team and fill them with the coaching staff, we need a Darren Lehmann/Steve Rixon style of coach with this side.

Agree with you overall point, but Fleming could be as aggressive and assertive as the best of them when required. The fact he led a team of big personalities, the likes of Parore, Cairns, Nash, McMillan & always seemed to be in control of the team speaks volumes for me.

 

[hendrix]

Listen to the guy talk, look at his body mannerisms, it's pretty easy to tell what his personality type is.

Cool cool I'll be sure to ask you for PUA tips and amateur psychology

 

[Blocky]

Agree with you overall point, but Fleming could be as aggressive and assertive as the best of them when required. The fact he led a team of big personalities, the likes of Parore, Cairns, Nash, McMillan & always seemed to be in control of the team speaks volumes for me.

You're also forgetting Fleming had the likes of Bracewell and Rixon to back him up, initially earlier era Fleming when he had Turner had no control over Cairns, Parore and co.

 

[hendrix]

But seriously this character thing is a) so undefined and b) so undetermined in whether it actually affects anything that I find it pointless to talk about.

There's so much more to talk about in terms of actual, tangible things without ghost whispering.

 

[The Hutt Rec]

You're also forgetting Fleming had the likes of Bracewell and Rixon to back him up, initially earlier era Fleming when he had Turner had no control over Cairns, Parore and co.

And Trist and Aberhart? (Incidentally Fleming's most successful years as captain).

 

[Zinzan]

But seriously this character thing is a) so undefined and b) so undetermined in whether it actually affects anything that I find it pointless to talk about.

Then don't. Always find it weird when people talk about something they find pointless to talk about.

 

[Zinzan]

I don't think the personality thing is the be all and end all for a captain, but I do think when 3 of the top figures in the hierarchy, coach, head selector & captain are all very mild-mannered & very non-aggressive in personality (at least on the outside), it might not be the best balance in leading a group of males at the top level of a highly competitive professional sport. Balance is important for mine.

 

[The Hutt Rec]

You're also forgetting Fleming had the likes of Bracewell and Rixon to back him up, initially earlier era Fleming when he had Turner had no control over Cairns, Parore and co.

Also Fleming was never captain when Turner was coach.

 

[hendrix]

Then don't. Always find it weird when people talk about something they find pointless to talk about.

It's a criticism of your criticism.

It's a necessary counterpoint to posts made in this thread. It's important to offer an alternative viewpoint.

 

[Zinzan]

It's a criticism of your criticism.

It's a necessary counterpoint to posts made in this thread. It's important to offer an alternative viewpoint.

Oh I agree with that, that's what debate is. Thought you were implying it's pointless to discuss the thing you were discussing.

 

[Zinzan]

Also Fleming was never captain when Turner was coach.

Correct it was Rixon who replaced Germon with Fleming after 1 test as coach IIRC.

 

[Blocky]

For some reason I felt Turner lasted just past the Germon saga.

If you read the view of Nash, Cairns and Parore, all of them credited Rixon for getting them to pull their heads in and respect NZ Cricket again. Fleming was a superb on field captain, but he also had some pretty good motivators in his side too and a reasonably mature team at that point, not taking anything away from him, but you wouldn't call him an extrovert.

 

[Zinzan]

If you read the view of Nash, Cairns and Parore, all of them credited Rixon for getting them to pull their heads in and respect NZ Cricket again. Fleming was a superb on field captain, but he also had some pretty good motivators in his side too and a reasonably mature team at that point, not taking anything away from him, but you wouldn't call him an extrovert.

Actually I would. Certainly not the bogan-ish aggressive type, but he was an extrovert in his own right. Great communicator and pretty dominant & forthright personality overall. And anyone who remembers his encounter with Graeme Smith knows he could be aggressive when required.

 

[indiaholic]

I think Williamson should not be the captain.. Changing the coach to an aggressive type wouldn't help because there will be clashes with the captain.

 

[Immenso]

I think Williamson should not be the captain.. Changing the coach to an aggressive type wouldn't help because there will be clashes with the captain.

I agree. Sort of. I don't think it's s bad thing if captain and coach have similarish personalities (as I've already said). It's cricket not rugby.

I also dont think Larsen's personality, as selector is relevant at all. That's a real red herring Zinzan. He's not in team mgmt. it's probably more relevant that Watling Isnt a ****, or Southee is a pea heart, or the bowling coach has no credibility so can't be alpha. That effects match day dynamics, the selector's judged by his selections, and they're ok.

I actually don't really like Hesson, a lingering emotion from when I thought he was about to split our golden generation assunder. Now 4 years later he's in charge of a team,that I still consider a golden generation by NZ standards, which has been grossly underperforming for 2 years, but I don't see firing him as a golden bullet. Go figure. There's got to be a better way.

Now that David White has gone back to the 3 month Pluntet Shield hiatus I think there are bigger targets. Let alone the A program.

Let's get the pressure building from below. Because honestly right now who could you change for who in the playing 11? Asked the same question 2 years ago I could bombard you with options.

 

[Immenso]

But in saying all I said above. I actually like that this question is being asked about Hesson.

No come on Hess, you caused an NZ sporting earthquake to get the captain you wanted 4 years ago. Now prove you haven't just been riding on Baz's coatails for the last few years. You're one of the most experienced coaches in international cricket now, man up you four eyed speccy nerd. Are you going to leave this to a 26 year old?

 

[vic_orthdox]

I don't think the personality thing is the be all and end all for a captain, but I do think when 3 of the top figures in the hierarchy, coach, head selector & captain are all very mild-mannered & very non-aggressive in personality (at least on the outside), it might not be the best balance in leading a group of males at the top level of a highly competitive professional sport. Balance is important for mine.

I think you're vastly overstating the importance of the personality of the chairman of selectors.

 

[Zinzan]

I think you're vastly overstating the importance of the personality of the chairman of selectors.

Its not just about him, it's about the main 3 guys in charge of selection being similar in nature. Not sure that's ideal when it comes to selection, but I could be wrong.

 

[vic_orthdox]

So not only are we projecting personalities onto these people from their public performances, but also asserting that similar personalities will have similar views on cricket? That's a lot of leaps to be making. And counterintuitive from my time in cricket - often it's the most staid guys who push for the most outrageous players (see Greg Shippherd and Glenn Maxwell).

 

[Zinzan]

So not only are we projecting personalities onto these people from their public performances, but also asserting that similar personalities will have similar views on cricket? That's a lot of leaps to be making. And counterintuitive from my time in cricket - often it's the most staid guys who push for the most outrageous players (see Greg Shippherd and Glenn Maxwell).

I hope you're correct. I've read about this theory before in a case study about the New York Mets, & the conclusion was that it can help having quite different personalities being involved in drafting and selections.