smash84
The Tiger King
Who is arguing otherwise?
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The Dismantling of India
- Thread starter Victor Ian
- Start date
S.Kennedy
International Vice-Captain
I've always looked on test cricket as winning the series. That is the priority. The margin of the victory is merely a bonus.
srbhkshk
International Captain
Pakistan dropping tests in UAE is signifcant because of that. Otherwise they'd probably be the #1 team along with India. (I was referring to people claiming that as long as you win the series it's fine.)Who is arguing otherwise?
indiaholic
International Captain
I am definitely in the minority but I want the team to win every test.. Probably because of the time spent on watching a game.. Certainly don't feel that way towards limited overs cricket.
S.Kennedy
International Vice-Captain
Don't get me wrong, I want my team to win every test but the priority surely is winning the series and I do not find, ultimately, that to lose a test or two while winning a series lessens the impact of a close fought series win. I think, India aside, most nationalities would bite their left hand off to possess Pakistan's UAE (series) results.
To put it another way, let's say the losses are dead rubbers. Once the series is taken, my attitude would be: ''pity we've lost the dead rubber but who cares as we won the series?''.
indiaholic
International Captain
The priority is winning the series but I don't feel that way about dead rubbers.. Get pissed off when for eg. NZ and England seemed to give up the ghost too easily in their last tests. Plus I can never agree with decision making by captains which hinges on the test being a dead rubber.. A few people have argued that Faf's declaration was okay because the series was already decided but it doesn't sit right with me.
smash84
The Tiger King
yeah, I am with this. As long as we win the series, its all good. Of course winning all the tests would be awesome and be an icing on the cake but the series win far far more important to me than to win all the tests in the series.
OverratedSanity
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But you haven't won every series anyway. The tests Pakistan dropped to Pak, SL and SA all led to 1-1 draws.
smash84
The Tiger King
When did I ever say we won all the series?
S.Kennedy
International Vice-Captain
Even the great Aussie team of the late 1990's early 00s used to leak test matches during their regular England thrashings, usually when the series had been won,
1998 - 9, England won fourth test
2001, England won fourth test
2002 - 03, England won the fifth test
Did the Aussies care that much? Perhaps a bit, but I hardly think they were that arsed considering they had already mauled 'the poms' by that stage.
1998 - 9, England won fourth test
2001, England won fourth test
2002 - 03, England won the fifth test
Did the Aussies care that much? Perhaps a bit, but I hardly think they were that arsed considering they had already mauled 'the poms' by that stage.
Burgey
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Generally they didn't, though the fourth test in England in 2001 was the one Steve Waugh missed through injury and Gilly skippered. They declared leaving England a challenging last day chase and Mark Butcher played the innings of his life to get England home.
Black_Warrior
Cricketer Of The Year
Away series in the last 2 years for PakistanHere we go again with the myth about Pak's "away success". Before this year, they'd barely ventured outside Asia for 6 years FFS. Last time they did, they got smashed 3-0 in SA and only drew in WI and Zimbabwe ().
So their away success consists of one drawn series in England. Not remotely comparable to what SA have achieved.
2-1 in Sri Lanka
1-0 in Bangladesh and before you dismiss that, just jog back to October this year.
2-2 in England.
0-2 in New Zealand
It's not a great record but these are the last 4 away series they have played.
Compare that to the last 4 away series of
Australia
England
New Zealand
Sri Lanka
Other than South Africa who just have 0-3 in India, tell me which other team has a better away record in the last 2-3 years? India have 2 away wins which seems to be the highest, which is also how many Pakistan have, plus a drawn series.
If that's a bad away record, then I don't know what gold standard you judge teams by.
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Black_Warrior
Cricketer Of The Year
If dropping test is a concern, then South Africa regularly dropped tests when they were number 1. Australia even at their absolute peak dropped tests against England, India (home and away).
It happens. I am not sure since when 3-0 and 5-0 became the absolute standard. England won the last Ashes dropping 2 test matches. Who cares?
They haven't lost a test series in UAE since 2010. If you are going to whine about the 2 match series they play, well go and blame ICC for that. Not like Pakistan has control over schedules and things like that. If only they regularly got 4-5 test match series whenever they felt like.
It happens. I am not sure since when 3-0 and 5-0 became the absolute standard. England won the last Ashes dropping 2 test matches. Who cares?
They haven't lost a test series in UAE since 2010. If you are going to whine about the 2 match series they play, well go and blame ICC for that. Not like Pakistan has control over schedules and things like that. If only they regularly got 4-5 test match series whenever they felt like.
Victor Ian
International Coach
Back on topic guys. This is not an offshoot for the 'best team in cricket right now - debate nuanced misunderstood points back and forth for forever" thread
Australia have to go to India and win. There shall be no accepting the consensus reality of being thrashed 4-0 until it has happened.
I haven't seen any arguments against getting in practice in the conditions - touring early, and sending players over to do time in the local games. The later part, I think really needs to happen, for all teams. There was a time when so many test cricketers spent off seasons playing elsewhere. I want the Aussies to all start having to play in County Cricket and the subcontinent, and for overseas players from overseas to come here and play. The idea is not for Australia to wait for the next perfect storm of players to arrive, but to turn what we have into actual well rounded players who know how to adapt.
Another idea to bring down India, longer term, is to add two teams to the Sheffield Shield, Darwin and perhaps Cairns. The diluting of talent could be offset by having overseas players play out here in the shield. Then Australia could have two pitches in the summer rotation for playing in spinning, drying out, hot, humid conditions.
Longer, Longer term, should Australia allow little brother (New Zealand) to field some teams in the shield? Sure, the main focus right now is to defeat India, but after a spicey meal, Australia will desire some limey meat again and Nz pitches might help prepare.
Intent! Some throw this word around as a bit of an insult. Intent is vital. But there are different types of intent. You can be intent on being a dickhead and insisting on smashing the bowlers about as if you have a train to catch that is pulling into station. Or you can be intent on not getting out. Steve (the Waugh flavour) became great when he decided, "**** it - I'm not getting out anymore" and threw away all his stupid-style intent shots. The intent to not get out, when you turn it into reality really ****s with opposition minds and actually makes batting easier in the long run.
Team Tactics. It is very unlikely Australia can go to India and blast them out with fast bowling, and even more unlikely that they will be a cut above in the spin department. So what do you do when you can't win? ..... You don't lose. That is the key for Australia there... Don't lose. That should be their mantra. Don't lose the first three tests and watch India implode. Australian batsmen! Here is your chance to inflate your averages.
Australia have to go to India and win. There shall be no accepting the consensus reality of being thrashed 4-0 until it has happened.
I haven't seen any arguments against getting in practice in the conditions - touring early, and sending players over to do time in the local games. The later part, I think really needs to happen, for all teams. There was a time when so many test cricketers spent off seasons playing elsewhere. I want the Aussies to all start having to play in County Cricket and the subcontinent, and for overseas players from overseas to come here and play. The idea is not for Australia to wait for the next perfect storm of players to arrive, but to turn what we have into actual well rounded players who know how to adapt.
Another idea to bring down India, longer term, is to add two teams to the Sheffield Shield, Darwin and perhaps Cairns. The diluting of talent could be offset by having overseas players play out here in the shield. Then Australia could have two pitches in the summer rotation for playing in spinning, drying out, hot, humid conditions.
Longer, Longer term, should Australia allow little brother (New Zealand) to field some teams in the shield? Sure, the main focus right now is to defeat India, but after a spicey meal, Australia will desire some limey meat again and Nz pitches might help prepare.
Intent! Some throw this word around as a bit of an insult. Intent is vital. But there are different types of intent. You can be intent on being a dickhead and insisting on smashing the bowlers about as if you have a train to catch that is pulling into station. Or you can be intent on not getting out. Steve (the Waugh flavour) became great when he decided, "**** it - I'm not getting out anymore" and threw away all his stupid-style intent shots. The intent to not get out, when you turn it into reality really ****s with opposition minds and actually makes batting easier in the long run.
Team Tactics. It is very unlikely Australia can go to India and blast them out with fast bowling, and even more unlikely that they will be a cut above in the spin department. So what do you do when you can't win? ..... You don't lose. That is the key for Australia there... Don't lose. That should be their mantra. Don't lose the first three tests and watch India implode. Australian batsmen! Here is your chance to inflate your averages.
Burgey
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This idea that you have to clean sweep sides to be a good team yourself is ****ing ludicrous.
The other ********* thing that's creeping into discussions on here is "So and so only averaged 42/43/45 on this tour, which isn't great".
Put the word out there - it isn't the 2000s any more. Conditions for bowling aren't as bad as they were a decade ago. If you're marking down players in the current era for averaging in the mid-40s on away tours then you know **** all about cricket.
The other ********* thing that's creeping into discussions on here is "So and so only averaged 42/43/45 on this tour, which isn't great".
Put the word out there - it isn't the 2000s any more. Conditions for bowling aren't as bad as they were a decade ago. If you're marking down players in the current era for averaging in the mid-40s on away tours then you know **** all about cricket.
Black_Warrior
Cricketer Of The Year
Mate unless you have a clean record and whitewash every other team both home and away, you are not a good team. Period.
Remember when we used to say in 2001-02 to Waugh's Australian team "mate you dropped a test against this ****** England side..you're no good"
Remember when we used to say in 2001-02 to Waugh's Australian team "mate you dropped a test against this ****** England side..you're no good"
Motorwada
Banned
Yeah but those dropped tests have led to series DRAWS right - SL 2014, NZ 2014, SA 2013.
Even in 2013-14 Pakistan lost 0-3 to SA, 1-1 in Zim (
) and 0-2 in SL. So they don't really have a good away record (in line with most other teams) and a good but not great home record (like say England who drop matches regularly at home but still win/draw series).
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