***Official*** England in India 2016/17

[Black_Warrior]

Ok there are two ways to having this conversation about Root.

One - Root is a home track bully or maybe a English track bully by throwing his numbers in Australia, UAE and now India. This is the sort of argument that a person would make when they have a personal axe to grind against a player - and by personal I mean said player is in competition with one of this person's favourite players so he will now find every reason and excuse to bring this player down.




Two - Root is a great player, his record in Australia was just his first series and he is bound to improve. That being said, given the form he has been in this year and the stage of his career he is in, his performance in India is a tad disappointing..not because he is a home track bully or that he cannot play in these conditions..it's because he looked good in so many innings and yet rarely carried on. He has 3 centuries this year and given the number of games he has played, for a player of his quality, this is disappointing. This is not an everlasting indictment on his career. Pretty much every great player will have similar series. They become better over time and usually by the time they end their career, they correct these issues.


For Root fans (the real ones, not necessarily the ones who call themselves that ), if you're going to get defensive if the above is mentioned, then are you exactly the kind of fan in the first category who has a very black and white view of things.

You can say he is a great player, and still acknowledge that he should have done better in this series. These two things are not contradictory.

 

[Senile Sentry]

And Lol @ Cook's comments on Jadeja. Guy is just so so sore as a loser. Seems to hate having to give credit to India this entire series and any time he has ever said anything it has been so grudging and always accompanied by the ever so important "in these conditions". Dunno if he was always this bad but definite signs that he is at the end of his captaincy career AFAIC. He sounds very cynical and jaded and the worrying thing from an English PoV is that it seemed to be that way from as early as the 3rd test mid.

Actually that soreness shows an unwillingness to lose. Personally I don't think 'pleasing, gracious, polite' guys make good captains in the long term. Not in modern cricket, never in a team with strong personalities who require someone even stronger in perception to overlord them.

Cook is displaying that mongrel attitude which Ponting famously used to. He too was a bad loser but I have always begrudgingly admired that. But the difference is that Ponting almost always showed that on field even while batting but with Cook it has till now just been in press-cons. The moment he transplants this aggression on field I am all for him to continue captaining England for some more time.

Seems like he's feeling a bit intimidated by Bayliss' presence in the dressing room.

 

[Zinzan]

What did Cook say about Jadeja? It wasn't a subtle but obvious cheap shot like Anderson's about Kohli was it?

 

[honestbharani]

Nah.. it was more of a begrudgingly thru gritted teeth admission of " he has my number".

 

[cnerd123]

Yea to be fair, Cook did also say after the match that as elite athletes you are supposed to believe that you can beat any team, any time, if you play to your potential, but then admitted that India were just better than them 'in these conditions'

And tbh that's fair. He owned up that they were outclassed, but didn't write off his sides ability completely. I can't fault him for believing that his team could still beat India outside of India. He should believe that. He can't put his hands up and go '**** it, we suck'. That's not how you should be thinking as an international-level captain.

 

[S.Kennedy]

The teams certainly do not like each other, albeit not like the rancour between certain teams. I cannot imagine any beers after play a la Ashes 2005, or any of that chuminess which seemed to exist between NZ and England recently.

 

[Black_Warrior]

The teams certainly do not like each other, albeit not like the rancour between certain teams. I cannot imagine any beers after play a la Ashes 2005, or any of that chuminess which seemed to exist between NZ and England recently.

The Big 3 generally hate each other..well maybe England-Australia not so much..but that's why it's so much fun to watch them play..bunch of brats and bullies having a go at each other..
Can't wait for Kohli vs Smith next year

 

[Senile Sentry]

The teams certainly do not like each other, albeit not like the rancour between certain teams. I cannot imagine any beers after play a la Ashes 2005, or any of that chuminess which seemed to exist between NZ and England recently.

Which is great imho.

One thing helping it is that very few English test players participate in the IPL. Remember how Symonds and Bhajji used to be at each others' throats and then a couple of IPLs later they were chummies? That kind of dilutes the fun thing about nationalistic competitions.

So it's good to see this attitude. Anderson is doing the right thing (but chose a completely inopportune moment) to rile up the Indian players. I am tired of seeing brothers-from-different-mothers attitude on field in test or ODI cricket.

 

[Zinzan]

Yea to be fair, Cook did also say after the match that as elite athletes you are supposed to believe that you can beat any team, any time, if you play to your potential, but then admitted that India were just better than them 'in these conditions'

And tbh that's fair. He owned up that they were outclassed, but didn't write off his sides ability completely. I can't fault him for believing that his team could still beat India outside of India. He should believe that. He can't put his hands up and go '**** it, we suck'. That's not how you should be thinking as an international-level captain.

That's fair, pleased to hear he didn't do a Jimmy Anderson then.

 

[S.Kennedy]

The Big 3 generally hate each other..well maybe England-Australia not so much..but that's why it's so much fun to watch them play..bunch of brats and bullies having a go at each other..
Can't wait for Kohli vs Smith next year

England and Australia didn't like each other during the Clarke era - and probably now as it happens. This was considered unusual as, during the Waugh/Ponting era, they got on like a house on fire and used to have a beer after each session. They played fiercely on the pitch but were chums in the pavilion.

It goes back some years really (Botham's boozy barbecues).

But the Clarke/Smith era didn't talk with England. Anderson moaned about this.

 

[indiaholic]

Massively disagree with the argument that Root's 50 average is not that impressive because some Indian batsmen played better than him. There was a huge difference in the quality of spin bowling they faced.

 

[Shri]

Anderson moaned about this.

He was probably the reason for it too. Wac.

 

[harsh.ag]

Think we can all agree the reason was probably Haddin.

 

[indiaholic]

In b4 jedibrah post about how nice he is to puppies or some such.

 

[Kirkut]

491 runs at an average of 49.10 is very good, unless you were expecting Root to blunt the Indian attack like Steven Smith in 2014.

 

[honestbharani]

Yea to be fair, Cook did also say after the match that as elite athletes you are supposed to believe that you can beat any team, any time, if you play to your potential, but then admitted that India were just better than them 'in these conditions'

And tbh that's fair. He owned up that they were outclassed, but didn't write off his sides ability completely. I can't fault him for believing that his team could still beat India outside of India. He should believe that. He can't put his hands up and go '**** it, we suck'. That's not how you should be thinking as an international-level captain.

Actually that soreness shows an unwillingness to lose. Personally I don't think 'pleasing, gracious, polite' guys make good captains in the long term. Not in modern cricket, never in a team with strong personalities who require someone even stronger in perception to overlord them.

Cook is displaying that mongrel attitude which Ponting famously used to. He too was a bad loser but I have always begrudgingly admired that. But the difference is that Ponting almost always showed that on field even while batting but with Cook it has till now just been in press-cons. The moment he transplants this aggression on field I am all for him to continue captaining England for some more time.

Seems like he's feeling a bit intimidated by Bayliss' presence in the dressing room.

Its all fine and good during the series, which some posters here were mentioning during the 3rd test or so, IIRC. It was still poor form AFAIC but I can at least see why you wont want to own up to certain facts during the series. But post series, to talk this grudgingly just shows a lack of class AFAIC. If he is that boorish as a person in general when he loses, then fair enough. But from what I have seen, the folks with a better attitude during such defeats towards the opposition usually end up better captains too. And TBF to Cook, I certainly do not recall him being this jaded and boorish in media interactions before, but then again, the **** beat us every time he led his side against us (and rather comprehensively too) before this, so maybe he indeed is just a sore loser. I dont really mind it as much at the moment, given we won and we get to give back our fair share anyways, just that from an England PoV, is it a sign that Cook is near the end as a captain and should just give it up now so that he can go back to try and being the best opener in the world again?

The Big 3 generally hate each other..well maybe England-Australia not so much..but that's why it's so much fun to watch them play..bunch of brats and bullies having a go at each other..
Can't wait for Kohli vs Smith next year

No way.. The IPL has ensured that the Aussies at least get along with Indians better. There will be the inevitable sledging and abusing but they kiss and make up off the field pretty much all the time.

That's fair, pleased to hear he didn't do a Jimmy Anderson then.

Well, his comments on Jadeja is what I was referring to more than his comments about India itself. But yes, the amount of "in these conditions" tells you he is absolutely hating this and conversely that will make most Indian fans absolutely love it for that very reason.

England and Australia didn't like each other during the Clarke era - and probably now as it happens. This was considered unusual as, during the Waugh/Ponting era, they got on like a house on fire and used to have a beer after each session. They played fiercely on the pitch but were chums in the pavilion.

It goes back some years really (Botham's boozy barbecues).

But the Clarke/Smith era didn't talk with England. Anderson moaned about this.

He pretty much moans about everything, doesn't he?

Massively disagree with the argument that Root's 50 average is not that impressive because some Indian batsmen played better than him. There was a huge difference in the quality of spin bowling they faced.

491 runs at an average of 49.10 is very good, unless you were expecting Root to blunt the Indian attack like Steven Smith in 2014.

The point is, the average and record looks good on paper but the runs were not meaningful enough to make a difference. That is where someone like a Pujara or a Vijay had a better series than Root, which was my point. And he has had more than his share of luck. So its a case of rating performance when it actually mattered where I think he was disappointing. I never said he did not play well but those numbers do not represent or unfairly represent the impact he did (or did not) have as a batsman this series.

 

[Shri]

Think we can all agree the reason was probably Haddin.

This is all made up bullshit anyway. ****s will be ****s. Remember Chappel vs Botham? And Root vs Warner recently too. A few of them get along and make it boring.

 

[Burgey]

I wonder if a lot of these arguments would lose their steam if we (I include myself) looked at players from the POV of who you really want to get out in the opposition, rather than labelling X player a flat track/ home track bully.

If Australia is playing India here or away I want Kohli and Pujara out more than the other players. I think they're the most dangerous and most likely to damage Australia.

If it's England then it's Root.

SA it's Amla and De Villiers (Faf too when it comes to playing us)

NZ it's Williamson.

Doesn't mean the other blokes are spuds, just that to me they're the best and most dangerous players.

If I'm thinking that, then I can make a hundred posts decrying any of their records but itbt it means I do rate them.

It's like when Ponting played. Even if he was out of form or he had a **** record in a place like he did in India, I'm tipping the opposing fans wanted him out more than they wanted most, because he was someone who they knew would hurt them if he got in.

 

[Adders]

I wonder if a lot of these arguments would lose their steam if we (I include myself) looked at players from the POV of who you really want to get out in the opposition, rather than labelling X player a flat track/ home track bully.

If Australia is playing India here or away I want Kohli and Pujara out more than the other players. I think they're the most dangerous and most likely to damage Australia.

Hahaha, be careful what you wish for..........They were definitely the key wickets for me, got them out cheap this last test and I thought "you ripper, we're in here"........nek minnit 2 other ****s have powered India on to 750 dec. Mother****ers.

 

[Spark]

I wonder if a lot of these arguments would lose their steam if we (I include myself) looked at players from the POV of who you really want to get out in the opposition, rather than labelling X player a flat track/ home track bully.

If Australia is playing India here or away I want Kohli and Pujara out more than the other players. I think they're the most dangerous and most likely to damage Australia.

If it's England then it's Root.

SA it's Amla and De Villiers (Faf too when it comes to playing us)

NZ it's Williamson.

Doesn't mean the other blokes are spuds, just that to me they're the best and most dangerous players.

If I'm thinking that, then I can make a hundred posts decrying any of their records but itbt it means I do rate them.

It's like when Ponting played. Even if he was out of form or he had a **** record in a place like he did in India, I'm tipping the opposing fans wanted him out more than they wanted most, because he was someone who they knew would hurt them if he got in.

Yeah this is the best way to approach the discussion IMO.