***Official*** England in India 2016/17

[S.Kennedy]

Cook's problem has always been twofold. Firstly, he lets overs drift aimlessly so before you know it, the game has wandered away. Secondly, he is conservative. You can now add perplexing bowler selection (where is Stokes?) to that list.

 

[morgieb]

Looking at the wicket, it would have been better off if they had played in that sewer.

 

[Spark]

Cook's problem wasn't so much conservatism so much as cluelessness before, he genuinely seemed at a loss as to what to do when put under pressure and was heavily reliant on the backroom staff for tactical advice, even when actually out on the field. I thought he'd improved in the last year, though.

 

[theegyptian]

I'm beginning to think this England team peaked in South Africa and then the arsehole fell out. Yes, India were probably always going to beat England but it is the sheer gulf in class that is surprising. England have won, four/five tosses, and the wickets are hardly rank turners!! Even the Indian seamers (Yadev etc) have been much better than the English seamers and that is supposed to be our forte!! Rashid and Moen Ali are shockingly bad, and even Root - well, it is now frankly comical placing him in the same class as Kohli and Smith (that is how we are having to reassess England, from this tour).

There is something intrinsically rotten about the culture of the side. We see it in England when the poor dears have to play in London, and we've seen it whenever they play elsewhere in conditions that don't completely suit them. And we always see it in the last test of a series, wherever it's being played. Obviously it would help if the cba to hold into catches more often than we see at present, but it goes beyond that. You'd hope that having an Australian coach would help them to man up a bit, but there isn't much sign of that. I genuinely don't think it helps having a captain who gives the impression that he's rather be at home on the farm helps at all. I thought it rather nice of Kohli to provide a bit of instruction in addition to the master class that he'd provided in the last test - you know, the stuff about needing to be patient and score slowly at first to build an innings when playing in India. I wonder how many of them were listening.

Both these seem OTT to me.

Teams do better in certain conditions shocker. Indian batsman know how to play better in India than other nations shocker too. I see the players England have and I don't think they're particularly underperforming.. Stokes and Bairstow and Buttler have all evolved as batsman this winter and have spent plenty of time trying to build an innings in a subcontinental way in contrast to their general batting skills. There's been little in the wickets with the exception of Mumbai until day 4 or 5, So I wouldn't be too critical of Rashid or Ali particularly. They are not in the same class as the Indian spinners but who are? Root I don't value any more or less than I did before the series. He's batted reasonably, continues to improve and has been the most comfortable of the English batsmen but doesn't seem to quite go on at this point and really cash in on flat wickets. Right now he seems to score 70 or 80 or 120 when he gets in regardless of whether the wicket is flat or not. Good on non flat wickets, not so good on flat wickets.

The only players I'd say you could realistically ask more from were Cook, Broad and Anderson. Cook seems to be in a typical near end 5 year captaincy decline in his batting like most English captains go through. He was the one guy who could bat a couple of days in the team but the ability or concentration just hasn't been there. I wouldn't even say Broad or Anderson have done particularly badly. The wickets have been flat and any life was usually in the first session or two of the test match but England were always batting first. Anderson had been injured and hadn't played any cricket in 3+ months coming into the series having missed parts of the summer also - and is 34.

This test was always likely to be tough. You're 3-0 down against a better side in the conditions and having been away from home for 3 months where you can't leave the hotel. If England manage to get a draw tomorrow I think that'll be impressive (as stupid as that sounds given the scores).

As a fan I don't really have many complaints about England's performances on this tour. As a fan though I hope the mangement aren't so accepting. They need to be thinking about how they do better next time. They can't just accept that India are very good in India, and we are not.

 

[S.Kennedy]

Cook's problem wasn't so much conservatism so much as cluelessness before, he genuinely seemed at a loss as to what to do when put under pressure and was heavily reliant on the backroom staff for tactical advice, even when actually out on the field. I thought he'd improved in the last year, though.

Do you remember Cook being this inept before? It is true he's never been Mike Brearley, but I cannot recall him looking this clueless.

 

[andruid]

You can sau Arsehole here but not ****er?


What a test this is panning out to be though

 

[theegyptian]

btw can we all take a minute to crown James Anderson as the new Philander

> has an 8 day breather before the series deciding game
> bowls 20 overs in 5 days
> 4 day break
> sees a couple of pictures floating around the internet of groundsmen bbqing the pitch
> "nah i'm a bit sore, i think i'll sit this one out" jk guys chill "It's not worth the risk," Cook said. "When he has been in this situation over the last six months and we have played him, he has picked up injuries.

I'm not a grean fan of some of Anderson's antics on the field but I certainly wouldn't question his commitment to the team. This is a guy who played 3 ashes tests with a broken rib where England were getting slaughtered and everyone else was going home. You don't get to 122 tests by being a bit soft.

 

[Spark]

Do you remember Cook being this inept before? It is true he's never been Mike Brearley, but I cannot recall him looking this clueless.

Yes. Stages during both parts of the Ashes double header in 2013-4, some of his captaincy was absolutely dreadful. WI series where Moores got sacked had some pretty bad moments too.

 

[OverratedSanity]

Yes. Stages during both parts of the Ashes double header in 2013-4, some of his captaincy was absolutely dreadful. WI series where Moores got sacked had some pretty bad moments too.

The home summer of 2014 was pretty terrible in terms of captaincy....He let Mathews and Herath build a huge lead with some inexplicable fields and bowling changes and a few months later vs India had Plunkett bowl half trackers from around the wicket on the greenest pitch imaginable.

 

[Daemon]

I'm not a grean fan of some of Anderson's antics on the field but I certainly wouldn't question his commitment to the team. This is a guy who played 3 ashes tests with a broken rib where England were getting slaughtered and everyone else was going home. You don't get to 122 tests by being a bit soft.

lavender text strikes again

 

[honestbharani]

This test was always likely to be tough. You're 3-0 down against a better side in the conditions and having been away from home for 3 months where you can't leave the hotel. If England manage to get a draw tomorrow I think that'll be impressive (as stupid as that sounds given the scores).

As a fan I don't really have many complaints about England's performances on this tour. As a fan though I hope the mangement aren't so accepting. They need to be thinking about how they do better next time. They can't just accept that India are very good in India, and we are not.

Pretty sure they have been free to roam around in India.

Not addressing theegyptian in particular from here:

To me some of this post typifies what might be wrong with English cricket. I caught the Verdict program on sky sports and Bob Willis and the host guy kept going on about how India were the better team "in these conditions". I sat through two of the most humiliating defeats India have had as a team and both happened in England. 2011 and 2014. And I saw a lot of shows in Indian media but none which kept telling England were the better team "in these conditions". There were questions on captaincy, tactics, selections, ability of players etc. But I actually saw Bob Willis, who seems to be a respected voice in English cricket for whatever reason, literally say "Cook and the team must be thinking they cant wait to get these guys on English tracks again".. I am sorry but that is just insipid. Indian media were all over most players, including Kohli, saying they cant just be batsmen who bat well in the flat tracks. England cant just be a team that bats and bowls well only on flat tracks. I just see way too many excuses being thrown up for being outplayed. It is one thing to accept the other team played better than you but the amount of provisos going on about this performance, by some of the CW posters and just about everyone in the wider English cricket media, suggests to me they are never really gonna improve and even the team, barring a couple of players, just seem to be grudgingly accepting of the fact that India were better.


FACT: 4 of the 10 test playing nations are in the Indian sub-continent. If you cant play in these conditions, you will never EVER be a good test team, forget being great.

 

[honestbharani]

I enjoyed how well India played here today. Just like Virat at Mumbai, Karun here ensured that once the ascendancy was established, it was rammed home in the most dominant manner possible. While the defensive techniques of the new generation of Indian batsmen against spin does leave a lot to be desired, this series in particular has shown that when it comes to taking them on in flat tracks, they have no equal (except maybe Pak and to a lesser extent, Sri Lanka)... The addition of the ODI and T20 shots to these guys' armoury has basically meant the captain can never really defend every possible boundary against these guys and that is just awesome.

 

[theegyptian]

lavender text strikes again

I saw it. I just wanted to defend Anderson.

 

[vcs]

Pretty sure they have been free to roam around in India.

Not addressing theegyptian in particular from here:

To me some of this post typifies what might be wrong with English cricket. I caught the Verdict program on sky sports and Bob Willis and the host guy kept going on about how India were the better team "in these conditions". I sat through two of the most humiliating defeats India have had as a team and both happened in England. 2011 and 2014. And I saw a lot of shows in Indian media but none which kept telling England were the better team "in these conditions". There were questions on captaincy, tactics, selections, ability of players etc. But I actually saw Bob Willis, who seems to be a respected voice in English cricket for whatever reason, literally say "Cook and the team must be thinking they cant wait to get these guys on English tracks again".. I am sorry but that is just insipid. Indian media were all over most players, including Kohli, saying they cant just be batsmen who bat well in the flat tracks. England cant just be a team that bats and bowls well only on flat tracks. I just see way too many excuses being thrown up for being outplayed. It is one thing to accept the other team played better than you but the amount of provisos going on about this performance, by some of the CW posters and just about everyone in the wider English cricket media, suggests to me they are never really gonna improve and even the team, barring a couple of players, just seem to be grudgingly accepting of the fact that India were better.


FACT: 4 of the 10 test playing nations are in the Indian sub-continent. If you cant play in these conditions, you will never EVER be a good test team, forget being great.

I don't think what the media say has a huge bearing on things, or represents bigger problems in English cricket. There are so many disparate voices even within the media so there could be some confirmation bias on your part. When India get tonked abroad in Tests after their superstars make 1000s of runs in the IPL, it doesn't look good either. But then it would also be wrong to attribute those failures completely to T20 money and **** batting techniques developed on flat wickets.

 

[honestbharani]

I don't think what the media say has a huge bearing on things, or represents bigger problems in English cricket. There are so many disparate voices even within the media so there could be some confirmation bias on your part. When India get tonked abroad in Tests after their superstars make 1000s of runs in the IPL, it doesn't look good either. But then it would also be wrong to attribute those failures completely to T20 money and **** batting techniques developed on flat wickets.

You are not getting my point. When India played like **** in England, there was outrage across media that we were not good enough to compete there. From what I see in England media, they seem to be taking the approach of "yeah they are better there, but we will be better here, so its all ok". You are right, I am basing it on the stuff I read and watch but what else am I supposed to base my opinion on? And you can see it in the way some of the England players have been reacting as well.

 

[vcs]

Was there outrage in our media? I read several articles in cricinfo saying "all this will be forgotten when the next Yusuf Pathan/Manish Pandey smashes the fastest IPL hundred, which is the endemic problem with Indian cricket" etc..

TBH, I feel WC losses get highlighted by our mainstream media far more. Probably because they are able to tie in other celebrity stuff, Anushka Sharma and all that with cricket coverage to capture casual "fans". They paper over Test series defeats abroad.

So you see guys like Bhuvaneshwar Kumar being perennially underrated since they aren't regulars in the ODI/T20 side while the likes of Hardik Pandya are "superstars". Or Rohit Sharma getting such a long run in Tests.

 

[theegyptian]

Pretty sure they have been free to roam around in India.

Not addressing theegyptian in particular from here:

To me some of this post typifies what might be wrong with English cricket. I caught the Verdict program on sky sports and Bob Willis and the host guy kept going on about how India were the better team "in these conditions". I sat through two of the most humiliating defeats India have had as a team and both happened in England. 2011 and 2014. And I saw a lot of shows in Indian media but none which kept telling England were the better team "in these conditions". There were questions on captaincy, tactics, selections, ability of players etc. But I actually saw Bob Willis, who seems to be a respected voice in English cricket for whatever reason, literally say "Cook and the team must be thinking they cant wait to get these guys on English tracks again".. I am sorry but that is just insipid. Indian media were all over most players, including Kohli, saying they cant just be batsmen who bat well in the flat tracks. England cant just be a team that bats and bowls well only on flat tracks. I just see way too many excuses being thrown up for being outplayed. It is one thing to accept the other team played better than you but the amount of provisos going on about this performance, by some of the CW posters and just about everyone in the wider English cricket media, suggests to me they are never really gonna improve and even the team, barring a couple of players, just seem to be grudgingly accepting of the fact that India were better.


FACT: 4 of the 10 test playing nations are in the Indian sub-continent. If you cant play in these conditions, you will never EVER be a good test team, forget being great.

In the very next paragraph I say that the management can't think like that. They've got to look to improve the players and tactics for next time.

But what I or some random Bob Willis thinks in the press is basically irrelevant. We don't have any part to play in how England perform. It doesn't matter whether I am defeatist or whatever. I'm a fan. I'm not playing. It's the team and the ECB management that can impact how they go.

And the fact is you can't do much without the personnel. The thing is I personally look at the quality of the players on offer of both teams and make assesment of how I think the teams are matched up and how the series will go. I said before they went to Bangladesh that it would most likely be 5-0 or 4-1 in India. You can try all you want and try and do better but if you don't have decent spinners you aren't going to win in India - at least on the wickets they're putting out these days.

And to be fair to the ECB they've changed the toss rules in county cricket to try and promote spin and there were some minor improvements this year with more spin being bowled and different wickets - but it'll be 5-10 years before you see any massive benefits from that I would guess.

 

[MW1304]

Bob Willis really isn't a respected voice in English cricket. He's an utterly predictable curmodgeon who is relegated to the Verdict to make his turgidly-delivered rants. You can get a laugh out of the odd comment from him but not many people are going to take his opinion very seriously.

@hb I think you're fixating on 'in these conditions' in the wrong way. It's just a clear fact to all observers in the last few years that each team has been vastly superior in their own countries. It's even more of an obvious fact that we in particular have struggled massively when the spinners are needed to do most of the work. We can't expect to go to India and be strongly competitive in every match, it would be unreasonable to expect. We do, however, want our players to at least do the best they can, and maybe even surprise us in a few ways.

But I don't see how it's wrong, as fans, to be resigned to a result when all the evidence we have seen pointed to that in the first place. We're not the players, we can't be expected to hold to the same levels of self-belief that the players have to display; ultimately we're just observers of the game. But I hope the backroom staff and everybody involved, as theegyptian said, hold themselves to higher standards and expect a lot better. The media is somewhat the same, there's a bunch of different voices in there and I don't think you can point to one overriding culture within it that shapes the way the team plays. As an institution you have to separate yourself from that to a great extent.

 

[Heboric]

Both these seem OTT to me.



As a fan I don't really have many complaints about England's performances on this tour. As a fan though I hope the mangement aren't so accepting. They need to be thinking about how they do better next time. They can't just accept that India are very good in India, and we are not.

Really !!!

If i was an England supporter I would really be disappointed For a team that suppose to bat to 10 and have all these allrounders, they have been poor.

 

[Spark]

Really !!!

If i was an England supporter I would really be disappointed For a team that suppose to bat to 10 and have all these allrounders, they have been poor.

They made close to 500, what exactly is the problem with their batting?