Just how many "ATGs" are there in your mind?

[cnerd123]

This is actually a good question and I've been spending quite a bit of effort trying to think of an answer but can't.

I feel it ties into the thing about do we evaluate a player based on how good they were at their peak, or average it out over a career.

 

[ankitj]

Voted 50-100 but probably 25-50 would be better. Need to list down and then count.

 

[Slifer]

Atg since my time of watching cricket, so beginning in 1980:

Wi: Ambrose, Marshall, Lara, Richards.
Oz: Lillee, Mcgrath, Warne, Border, Waugh, Ponting, Gilchrist
Pak: Imran, Javed, Wasim, Waqar.
Nzl: Hadlee
Eng: ???
Ind: Sachin, Gavaskar
Rsa: Kallis, Donald, Steyn
SL: Murali

Unlucky to miss out: Dravid, Flower, Sanga, Garner, Walsh, Holding, Chanders, Pollock, Smith G, Hayden, etc etc

Future potential atg: Root, Kw, Smith, Kohli, Rabada, Ashwin, Etc

 

[Burgey]

What about Kapil? Genuinely reckon he qualifies, but it's always a subjective thing.

 

[OverratedSanity]

My count comes out to 57.

Australia: Bradman, Chappell, Ponting, Border, Waugh, Trumper, Harvey, Lillee, McGrath, Lindwall, Miller, Davidson, Warne, O'Reilly, Grimmett, Gilchrist
England: Hobbs, Hutton, Hammond, Trueman, Barnes, Laker, Botham, Ames, Knott
West Indies: Sobers,Richards,Lara,Headley,Worrell, Walcott, Weekes, Marshall, Ambrose, Garner, Walsh, Holding
India: Tendulkar, Gavaskar, Dravid, Kapil
Pakistan: Imran, Wasim, Waqar, Miandad,Younis, Inzamam
South Africa: Kallis, Donald, Steyn, G. Pollock, S. Pollock
SL: Murali, Sangakkara
NZ: Hadlee
Zimbabwe: Flower
Bangladesh: Shakib

 

[Zinzan]

My count comes out to 57.

Australia: Bradman, Chappell, Ponting, Border, Waugh, Trumper, Harvey, Lillee, McGrath, Lindwall, Miller, Davidson, Warne, O'Reilly, Grimmett, Gilchrist
England: Hobbs, Hutton, Hammond, Trueman, Barnes, Laker, Botham, Ames, Knott
West Indies: Sobers,Richards,Lara,Headley,Worrell, Walcott, Weekes, Marshall, Ambrose, Garner, Walsh, Holding
India: Tendulkar, Gavaskar, Dravid, Kapil
Pakistan: Imran, Wasim, Waqar, Miandad,Younis, Inzamam
South Africa: Kallis, Donald, Steyn, G. Pollock, S. Pollock
SL: Murali, Sangakkara
NZ: Hadlee
Zimbabwe: Flower
Bangladesh: Shakib

Good effort to compile a full list, 57 sounds a reasonable number.

Although, I feel you've possibly been a little generous on Inzamam, Flower, Shakib, S Pollock, Donald, Dravid & Knott, which if omitted would see you bang on 50

 

[harsh.ag]

Australia - Spofforth, Turner, Ferris, Trumper, Bradman, O'Reilly, Grimmett, Lindwall, Miller, Davidson, Harvey, Lillee, Chappell, Border, SWaugh, Warne, McGrath, Ponting, Gilchrist (19)
Windies - Headley, Worrell, Weekes, Walcott, Sobers, Viv, Roberts, Holding, Garner, Marshall, Walsh, Ambrose, Lara, Chanderpaul (14)
England - Grace, Lohmann, Ranjitsinghji, Blythe, Barnes, Rhodes, Hobbs, Sutcliffe, Hammond, Hutton, Barrington, Trueman, Knott, Botham (14)
South Africa - Faulkner, Mitchell, Nourse, Pollock, Barry, Procter, Donald, Pollock, Kallis, Steyn, Amla, ABdV (12)
Pakistan - Imran, Miandad, Wasim, Waqar, Inzamam, Younis (6)
India - Gavaskar, Kapil, Tendulkar, Dravid (4)
SL - Muralitharan, Sangakkara (2)
NZ - Hadlee, Crowe (2)
Zimbabwe - Flower (1)

Total = 74

 

[Slifer]

Good effort to compile a full list, 57 sounds a reasonable number.

Although, I feel you've possibly been a little generous on Inzamam, Flower, Shakib, S Pollock, Donald, Dravid & Knott, which if omitted would see you bang on 50

Donald is most certainly an atg fast bowler.

 

[Howe_zat]

I think if you're going to have a top echelon then it doesn't make sense to include clear distinctions within that. If you include 100 cricketers it should be because you actually believe that they were all just as good as each other or at least arguably so.

For example if you can't see a way Courtney Walsh might be better than Malcolm Marshall, then Walsh can't be top tier because there is someone obviously better than him.

 

[Zinzan]

Donald is most certainly an atg fast bowler.

You're probably right about Donald, I'm just attempting my list now which will likely be closer to 40 in which it's a slightly thinner field.

 

[harsh.ag]

I think if you're going to have a top echelon then it doesn't make sense to include clear distinctions within that. If you include 100 cricketers it should be because you actually believe that they were all just as good as each other or at least arguably so.

For example if you can't see a way Courtney Walsh might be better than Malcolm Marshall, then Walsh can't be top tier because there is someone obviously better than him.

Or it could be accomplishments of certain achievements which make you an all-time great. Both approaches fair.

 

[mr_mister]

Like harshs list the most so far. More the merrier. I'd throw in Bedser too

 

[watson]

There are at least a hundred ATGs I reckon.

For me there are 9-11 ATGs in each team down to 'q', and then definites like AC McLaren in lower teams.

world xi (1)
1. J hobbs 2. L hutton 3. D bradman 4. V richards 5. S tendulkar 6. G sobers 7. A gilchrist+ 8. I khan 9 s. Warne 10. M marshall 11. G mcgrath

world a xi (2)
1. S gavaskar 2. H sutcliffe 3. G headley 4. B lara 5. W hammond 6. J kallis 7. A knott+ 8. R hadlee 9. W akram 10. C ambrose 11. M muralitharan

world b xi (3)
1. B richards 2. V trumper 3. G chappell 4. G pollock 5. A border 6. K miller 7. L ames+ 8. D lillee 9. F trueman 10. B o'reilly 11. S barnes

world c xi (4)
1. G boycott 2. W.g grace 3. R ponting 4. K barrington 5. S waugh 6. C walcott+ 7. I botham 8. A davidson 9. M holding 10. J laker 11. A donald

world d xi (5)
1. G greenidge 2. M hayden 3. R dravid 4. D compton 5. E weekes 6. F worrell 7. D lindsay+ 8. S pollock 9. R lindwall 10. J garner 11. C grimmett

world e xi (6)
1. G gooch 2. A morris 3. N harvey 4. J miandad 5. D nourse 6. A flower+ 7. M procter 8. R benaud 9. D steyn 10. A roberts 11. W younis

world f xi (7)
1. B mitchell 2. B simpson 3. K sangakkara 4. K ranjitsinhji 5. C macartney 6. C lloyd 7. K dev 8. D tallon+ 9. H verity 10. H larwood 11. C walsh

world g xi (8)
1. V merchant 2. H mohammad 3. S mccabe 4. K pietersen 5. S chanderpaul 6. A faulkner 7. F engineer+ 8. H tayfield 9. A bedser 10. I bishop 11. C croft

world h xi (9)
1. G smith 2. V sehwag 3. R kanhai 4. M crowe 5. Inzamam ul-haq 6. D walters 7. I healy+ 8. M tate 9. A kumble 10. W hall 11. J snow

world i xi (10)
1. W ponsford 2. W lawry 3. T dexter 4. P may 5. D gower 6. A greig 7. J dujon+ 8. P pollock 9. C turner 10. B statham 11. L gibbs

world j xi (11)
1. T goddard 2. E barlow 3. I chappell 4. E paynter 5. Ab de villiers 6. Vvs laxman 7. J waite+ 8. G lohmann 9. D underwood 10. F tyson 11. N adcock

world k xi (12)
1. D haynes 2. B woodfull 3. C hill 4. M jayawardene 5. A jackson 6. A stewart+ 7. C cairns 8. A flintoff 9. W rhodes 10. F mahmood 11. B willis

world l xi (13)
1. S anwar 2. C hunte 3. R richardson 4. L hassett 5. C cowdrey 6. W armstrong 7. R marsh+ 8. J wardle 9. S bond 10. J thomson 11. T richardson

world m xi (14)
1. G kirsten 2. R fredericks 3. D boon 4. M yousuf 5. V hazare 6. S jackson 7. G evans+ 8. J briggs 9. J gillespie 10. F spofforth 11. S akhtar

world n xi (15)
1. A cook 2. J langer 3. Z abbas 4. G thorpe 5. M clarke 6. M waugh 7. M noble 8. G swann 9. J blackham+ 10. J cowie 11. B johnston

world o xi (16)
1. S barnes 2. M taylor 3. Y khan 4. D jardine 5. A de silva 6. V mankad 7. J russell+ 8. C vaas 9. H trumble 10. C mcdermott 11. J anderson

world p xi (17)
1. G turner 2. M slater 3. M leyland 4. H taylor 5. M hussey 6. F woolley 7. M prior+ 8. J gregory 9. T lock 10. M ntini 11. B reid

world q xi (18)
1. J edrich 2. D amiss 3. A kallicharan 4. M azharuddin 5. D martyn 6. M mohammad 7. R latif+ 8. H streak 9. S clarke 10. E prassana 11. B chandrasehkar

world r xi (19)
1. M vaughan 2. I redpath 3. S fleming 4. R smith 5. G vishwanath 6. J reid 7. M boucher+ 8. M hughes 9. A qadir 10. W daniel 11. M asif

world s xi (20)
1. M atherton 2. C gayle 3. T graveney 4. N o'neill 5. J ryder 6. B d'oliveria 7. G alexander+ 8. S mushtaq 9. J srinath 10. G mckenzie 11. P patterson

world t xi (21)
1. M trescothick 2. S dempster 3. K duleepsinhji 4. H amla 5. P hendren 6. Asif iqbal 7. W grout+ 8. G allen 9. B lee 10. B bedi 11. T alderman

world u xi (22)
1. S jayasuriya 2. B brown 3. D vengsarkar 4. D cullinan 5. T samaraweera 6. B mcmillan 7. S al-hasan 8. B oldfield+ 9. B voce 10. A fraser 11. S gupte

world v xi (23)
1. A strauss 2. J mcglew 3. L rowe 4. D lehmann 5. M donnelly 6. S ganguly 7. L constantine 8. W bari+ 9. D gough 10. S ajmal 11. B bowes

world w xi (24)
1. W bardsley 2. C washbrook 3. M amarnath 4. P mead 5. C bland 6. S nurse 7. Ms dhoni+ 8. Amar singh 9. E toshack 10. A mailey 11. P heine

world x xi (25)
1. A mclaren 2. H gibbs 3. J trott 4. M goodwin 5. S malik 6. S watson 7. G giffen 8. S broad 9. S harmison 10. S macgill 11. H strudwick+

world y xi (26)
1. S katich 2. M khan 3. B sutcliffe 4. B booth 5. I bell 6. P umrigar 7. P jayawardene+ 8. G hirst 9. C griffith 10. F de villiers 11. S ramadhin

world z xi (27)
1. H collins 2. C mcdonald 3. J hardstaff 4. R subba row 5. C davis 6. H cronje 7. D vettori 8. I smith+ 9. S nawaz 10. M ahmed 11. Jj ferris

 

[OverratedSanity]

Good effort to compile a full list, 57 sounds a reasonable number.

Although, I feel you've possibly been a little generous on Inzamam, Flower, Shakib, S Pollock, Donald, Dravid & Knott, which if omitted would see you bang on 50

Pollock, Donald and Dravid are no brainers imo.

Frankly though, if you want to limit it to like the very top echelon, then it's like 25 guys tbh.

 

[Bijed]

This is actually a good question and I've been spending quite a bit of effort trying to think of an answer but can't.

I feel it ties into the thing about do we evaluate a player based on how good they were at their peak, or average it out over a career.

For me, you've got to average it over their career. It's fair to make reasonable allowances for people not being so good at the start or end of their career as anyone can be picked when they're ready and might stick around longer than ideal because there's no-one to replace them, but after making such allowances, I do reckon someone's got to be ATG level for the vast majority of their career. I know that no-one's that consistent and dips in form are inevitable, but I think the term ATG demands strict criteria (that's not suggesting that there's some kind of statistical 'test' they should definitely need to pass).

But, I suppose, in the case of someone who is average/good for a lot of matches but then something changes and they become incredible, I guess if they're sufficiently brilliant for a good number of matches afterwards (a as rule of thumb at least half their total matches) they'd deserve the term ATG. To use a current (potential) example, Virat Kohli. After 40 or so test matches, his record was that of a perfectly good, but not fantastic, test batsman and he'd played enough games to be able to say his record wasn't just skewed by a shaky start to his career or something. Now, I'm not saying he'd have to maintain his current levels of insane run scoring, but if by the end of his career he averages low 50's after 100+ tests, that would mean, in my opinion, that his career had had enough of sustained upturn that I'd find it hard to argue against labelling him an ATG.

Edit: Looked it up, he averaged 43.36 after 40 tests.

 

[Zinzan]

Pollock, Donald and Dravid are no brainers imo.

Frankly though, if you want to limit it to like the very top echelon, then it's like 25 guys tbh.

Nah, fair enough. The more I think about it, the more I'm starting to think Harsh's number of 74 might be closer to the money, if we're not going for that absolute top-drawer level of ATG.

There's definitely a good case for those 3 names above, but having some of those others like Flower, Shakib, Inzamam & Knott really open it up for some others similar to them to warrant inclusion.

I mean Flower over players like Barry Richards, Gordon Greenidge and Martin Crowe, doesn't feel right to me in spite of the fact his average was better & he kept. Different eras, lots of not-out etc.

Same with Shakib being a better Test cricketer than Flintoff & Cairns, because he has a better batting average. Anyway, just my two cents.

 

[Zinzan]

Holy **** Watson, fair effort above. Assuming you only consider internationally retired players, or compiled this a while ago.

 

[Burgey]

Good from watson here.

Happy to see Benaud in the discussion too. Bowling allrounder and captain of the highest order.

 

[honestbharani]

ATGs I have seen (talking tests only here)




Australia - Steve Waugh, Shane Warne, Glenn McGrath, Ricky Ponting, Allan Border


South Africa - Allan Donald, Jacques Kallis, Shaun Pollock, Dale Steyn (Potentially - Hashim Amla, AB)


New Zealand - Martin Crowe (Potentially - Kane Williamson)


England - Alastair Cook (Potentially - Ben Stokes, Joe Root)


Bangladesh - (Potentially - Shakib Al Hasan)


Sri Lanka - Muttiah Muralitharan, Kumar Sangakkara


Pakistan - Wasim Akram, Waqar Younis, Imran Khan


India - Kapil Dev, Sachin Tendulkar, Rahul Dravid


Zimbabwe - Andy Flower


West Indies - Curtly Ambrose, Brian Lara

 

[Burgey]

Few good shouts in there. What about sehwag as an atg for India?