Wastemen etc

[Zinzan]

amongst left arm quicks he comfortably makes the top 20

Agree, & if we're limiting it to post 2005 cricketers. I'd say he sneaks in the top 10 lefties.

 

[stephen]

I don't think I've ever seen a bowler as good as Johnson when he was at his peak. He was outright dangerous to both batsmen and their wickets.

But then I don't think I've ever seen a bowler who was so utterly dire when he was out of form. Leaked runs, never threatened and was less reliable than a part timer.

If I could guarantee him at his peak he'd be the second name on my team sheet behind Bradman. If I knew he was going to be at his trough he'd be behind Jo Angel and Brad Williams in the pecking order.

 

[bagapath]

Warne
Oreilley
Lillee
McGrath
Lindwall
Davidson
Grimmett
Benaud
Miller
Spofforth
Gillespie
Reid
Ryan Harris
S. Clarke
I. Johnson
Thompson
McDermott
Hughes

Mitchell J

 

[Johnners]

Australians on Johnson in 2013























I could go on, the Brisbane Test thread is full of it

Edit: bonus Spikey

[

I'm hurt, Howe.

 

[Burgey]

He's one of the few bowlers since the use of the helmet who I reckon consistently physically threatened batsmen. That England side looked flat out scared, and I don't blame them. There have been blokes who've bowled faster, but I think his action just made him so hard to pick up out of the hand. A kind of left arm Thommo, albeit a bit slower.

 

[andruid]

Warne
Oreilley
Lillee
McGrath
Lindwall
Davidson
Grimmett
Benaud
Miller
Spofforth
Gillespie
Reid
Ryan Harris
S. Clarke
I. Johnson
Thompson
McDermott
Hughes

Mitchell J

You reckon he was better than Stuart Macgill?
*rushes off to start comparison thread*

 

[TheJediBrah]

It's so hard to rate Mitch Johnson because he was not just one bowler, he was at least 2 greatly varying players depending on how he was feeling.

If you're rating the guy from 2013-14 he's probably the best bar none, but if you're rating the guy who turned up more often than not around 2010 he's barely even an acceptable state bowler.

So where you put him on a list really depends how much weight you put to things like consistency.

 

[Top_Cat]

Err, 'scuse me Mr Howe_zat, posted in the Oz Domestic Thread two weeks before the 'Gabba Test of 2013.

Johnson playing in Brisbane is like *** with Kobe Bryant.

 

[Top_Cat]

Also adub, a few posts before, making his feelings real clear.

How much wind can you blow up one ****'s arse?

WA v SA, Sheffield Shield, Perth Report : Johnson takes two in encouraging display | Cricket News | ESPN Cricinfo

Encouraging display?




Yeah real ****ing encouraging for the Barmy Army. The **** goes for 4.4 an over in an innings where his team mates roll a pretty weak SA side for 222 and it's this myth that gets a write up? It reads like the school report of some mong child who spends their days at school ****ting their pants and eating their own snot, but it is encouraging that they aren't biting the other children as often and only call the teacher a ****ing slut 5 times a day.

Which is hardly a surprise as Berendorf and Hogan have significantly better fc averages, better economy rates. Only Hogan's slightly lower s/r gives Myth Johnson a win on any significant stat. Just lucky I suppose, couldn't possibly be because they out bowl the **** pretty much any time they line up together.

Just ****ing break down or die will you Johnson you ****.

 

[Burgey]

I exclusively predicted him to win the Compton-Miller Medal.

After bagging him for a couple of weeks beforehand

 

[dontcloseyoureyes]

I was of course grouped with the chorus of dissent, as was everyone really. I don't think I've ever seen anything like that Ashes series from a fast bowler. I thought he was going to kill someone. Hell, at the time, I probably wanted him to. For the first time in his career it looked like he knew he was bowling for his livelihood and legacy.

Slightly unrelated but I have a good friend who predicted he's win MoS, and won some serious coin in the process. I called him mad. He still reminds me haha.

 

[watson]

2007-2009
Tests = 30
Wickets = 137
Strike Rate = 52.4
Average = 28.05
5 fer = 4
10 fer = 1


2010 -2011
Tests = 17
Wickets = 53
Strike Rate = 65.7
Average = 39.67
5 fer = 3
10 fer = 1


2012-2015
Tests = 26
Wickets = 193
Strike Rate = 43.3
Average = 23.94
5 fer = 5
10 fer = 1


2007-2009/2012-2015
Tests = 56 (77%)
Wickets = 330
Strike Rate = 47.9
Average = 26.00
5 fer = 9
10 fer = 2


For three-quarters of his career Mitchell Johnson bowled with extreme pace, bounce and menace - and had the world-class stats to prove it.

But unfortunately the middle 2 years of his career were pretty mediocre in comparison despite grabbing the odd 5 or 10 fer.

Normally such a mid-career slump would be enough to prevent a bowler from being considered an ATG, but I think that Mitchell Johnson deserves a little more latitude than most because very few left-arm bowlers have has ever bowled as fast, or hit the same enormous peaks.

It is because that Mitchell Johnson is so unique, and has managed to re-write Ashes history, that he should be considered a bona fide ATG IMO.

Or to put it another way - without mercurial fast bowlers like Mitchell Johnson, Harold Larwood, or Jeff Thomson, cricket writers would have a lot less to write about, and cricket folklore would be the poorer for it. For the sake of cricket itself we need to elevate such players to the status of great.

 

[vic_orthdox]

I dunno whether this conversation is worth pursuing or whether it's just descended into bullshit, but for mine Lyon sits on par with some good offspinners throughout history, including Lance Gibbs, Erapalli Prasanna and Ashley Mallett. A rung below the elite in Murali and Laker, but still very valuable contributors nonetheless.

Think you're giving him a very good run putting him in a bracket with Gibbs and Prasanna. A level below that.

 

[vic_orthdox]

Lyon's done a bloody fantastic job in Australian conditions for a spinner full stop. When you look at what Graeme Swann's figures were in a dominant series by England in 2010/11 and compare Nathan's career figures with those in Australia, you see just how good he's been as a member of the attack.

I think going forward, I wouldn't be surprised if he is dropped in sub-continental conditions for O'Keefe - this might allow them to then play Maxwell and have two spinners in the team, spinning it different ways, and keep three quicks. Whereas playing Maxwell and Lyon in the same team wasn't really ideal.

 

[vic_orthdox]

OK, I didn't live through Thomson's career, but are we whitewashing him a bit?

Yes, he had his days where he obviously bowled fire - like, flamethrower, accelerant, everything, fire.

But it's like he's only remembered for being at his best because everyone waxes lyrical about it. He played a lot of cricket not at his best, for various reasons, but we cover it up and put him only a rung behind Lillee a lot of the time (in terms of Australian bowlers).

He's wound up with 200 wickets @ 28, vs MJ's 313 @ 28.4.

And we all talk about how bad MJ was at his worst, and he played through a lot of series on very, very flat wickets.

 

[Bahseph]

Johnson against SA in 2014 was the first time I saw any of our batsman genuinely afraid. It was scary, but you couldn't stop watching.

I think he is one of those cricketers who proves that stats don't tell the whole story. Cos even when he was getting spanked you knew he could get on a roll all of a sudden and hurt your team.

 

[listento_me]

Agree, & if we're limiting it to post 2005 cricketers. I'd say he sneaks in the top 10 lefties.

From 2005 to now, how many top left arm bowlers have there been? Mitchell Johnson would easily be top 3, don't be silly.

 

[wpdavid]

OK, I didn't live through Thomson's career, but are we whitewashing him a bit?

Yes, he had his days where he obviously bowled fire - like, flamethrower, accelerant, everything, fire.

But it's like he's only remembered for being at his best because everyone waxes lyrical about it. He played a lot of cricket not at his best, for various reasons, but we cover it up and put him only a rung behind Lillee a lot of the time (in terms of Australian bowlers).

He's wound up with 200 wickets @ 28, vs MJ's 313 @ 28.4.

And we all talk about how bad MJ was at his worst, and he played through a lot of series on very, very flat wickets.

All I would add about Tommo is that there's a pretty clear line to be drawn before and after the injury - maybe against Pakistan in 1976/77 iirc. The England and WI guys who faced him in those two mid-70s series when he was fully fit would have something to say about how serious a bowler he was. Not making any comparison with Johnson btw, just trying to suggest why Tommo is so highly regarded.

 

[Furball]

He was never dull, that's for sure.

I feel sorry for blokes who had to face him when he was on song like he was in the last Ashes out here. There was just nothing you can do about it when it's that quick and that accurate. And I feel sorry for the captains who had to put up with him when he was out of sorts, because he could be utter trash at times too.

I actually think he was pretty dull for the last year of his career. Prior to that he tended to oscillate from the sublime (Perth 08, South Africa 09, Perth 10, 2013/14) to the ridiculous (Ashes 2009, the rest of Ashes 2010/11) but he was always good value to watch.

Post Hughes and smacking Kohli he lost something and just turned into a boring bowler. Lost his menace but also retained the control he'd suddenly developed.

 

[Tromperie]

Had the greatest bowling performance by any bowler in any test series since Laker, so gets into the top 20 on that alone, but too much mediocrity (averaging nearly 57 in 2011; Darren Powell-esque stats) for him to get into the top 10 for me.