***Official*** Pakistan in New Zealand 2016/17

[Zinzan]

What domestic bubbles? Howsie loves ND but also likes Henry and Nuttall. Everyone including Kippax discount EPOO runs somewhat because it is genuinely flat..

Lol, if you can't see Howsie's bias towards ND goes a little further than just loving his province, you & I live on different universes.

Re: Kippax, he rubbished everyone who suggested Raval could be the goods, & laboured on about his same tired old point about EPOO as if that was the be all and end all of the discussion... so it's more than fair to call him out on not having a clue what he was talking about & making the observation that he didn't have the judgement afterall to spot that Raval technically had a better opening game than Guptill.

In fact the number of times folks have been ridiculed for even suggesting Raval could be an option ahead of the great Martin Guptill in the last 18 months or so & all we kept hearing is while Guppy might not be much chop, but he's the best we have.

It's a good lesson for some to look outside their bubbles, stereotypes & horribly generalised theories.

 

[SteveNZ]

I have to say I don't really get the domestic bubble either, if it exists. It does seem to blind some. I couldn't give a monkey's if the NZ XI has zero Aucklanders. Honestly, it's irrelevant to me once they put on a black cap where those people are from. And I've always felt capable of commenting reasonably impartially on guys from my club, my province whatever. I'm also happy to admit I'm wrong. I couldn't have got it more wrong on Wagner. Happens.

It's nice to have provincialism given it's dying in other sports with an increased move towards franchises, I guess. Not sure how long that'll last as FC cricket becomes less and less relevant in the eyes of the public.

 

[jcas0167]

...Everyone including Kippax discount EPOO runs somewhat because it is genuinely flat. ...
..
Also, gee our batting lineup looks awful without Taylor at 4. That's despite him not scoring many runs for the last two years. I struggle to think of who they should pick, though with the number of other inexperienced players in the side I think they'll go with someone who has already played a bit of test cricket, like Neesham, Ronchi or Anderson. Taylor's condition sounds really unpleasant.

One of the cool things to emerge from the test is that it offers hope for a number of domestic players that if Raval and CdG can step up, then so can they.

They might move Nichols up to no4 and play one of the guys mentioned above. Otherwise, maybe Dean Brownlie, Will Young, or Colin Munro could be in contention?

 

[Black_Warrior]

And it still ****ing hurts the next day. It doesn't heal with time.

 

[SteveNZ]

One of the cool things to emerge from the test is that it offers hope for a number of domestic players that if Raval and CdG can step up, then so can they.

They might move Nichols up to no4 and play one of the guys mentioned above. Otherwise, maybe Dean Brownlie, Will Young, or Colin Munro could be in contention?

Not sure I'd go that far yet. Pakistan were horribly underdone, no warm-up game and in completely foreign conditions to what they're used to/been playing in. Would I be right in saying the majority of them either haven't played in NZ or not for a long time? Jeet played well, but his tests will get harder when guys work him out and get more information on him. Pakistan didn't bowl that well to him at all, no sustained plan or consistency. And Colin is an honest option with the ball who I'd definitely call a batting all-rounder, not the other way around. I dont think we can expect him to be taking bags on anything but dirty green ones. He'll need to score runs to continue being an option over Anderson/Neesham etc.

Isn't it amazing, Ross has scored bugger all runs in the last 2 years (minus Perth) yet it feels like he leaves a gaping hole if he doesn't play. Nicholls would have to go up. Brownlie is an opener now, Young can't mentally get past 50 at domestic level so you'd suggest he'll find it even harder up a level. Manu I'd definitely consider at 5, doesn't bowl but goes big when he gets in and has a better game than anyone in the middle order around the domestic scene, including Nicholls (I don't include international regulars like Anderson/Santner)

 

[BeeGee]

And it still ****ing hurts the next day. It doesn't heal with time.

Mate, you need more time than that. It sounds like you're already on stage 4 of the 5 stages of grief. I'd still be on stage 2.

Win the next test and the pain will be gone.

 

[Zinzan]

Isn't it amazing, Ross has scored bugger all runs in the last 2 years (minus Perth) yet it feels like he leaves a gaping hole if he doesn't play.

I get people like to be wiseguys at the suggestion of removing Taylor's 290 for context, & then joke about removing all players best scores, but it was just one innings. And If you do remove it, he's averaged 20 in Test cricket in the last 2 years against non-minnow sides.

 

[Zinzan]

And it still ****ing hurts the next day. It doesn't heal with time.

Take solace from the fact if any pitch in NZ suits Pakistan more, it's probably Hamilton.

 

[SteveNZ]

Nah, I agree and I'm usually the biggest wiseguy. Incredible knock, it was, but his offerings around that have been obsolete as you say. I just don't see the fight in him anymore, and if his eyes are going too that's another significant barrier to performance. I think he's got one summer, best two left in him. So we need to be working towards a new plan for #4. Maybe that involves Latham 3 and Kane 4? Worth thinking about given the dearth of guys in domestic cricket scoring runs or putting pressure on Ross for #4.

 

[Athlai]

I get people like to be wiseguys at the suggestion of removing Taylor's 290 for context, & then joke about removing all players best scores, but it was just one innings. And If you do remove it, he's averaged 20 in Test cricket in the last 2 years against non-minnow sides.

And remove the top scores of our other players against top 8 opposition in the last two years and we have....

Williamson 60.48
Watling 29.12
Taylor 20.96
Ronchi 33
Nicholls 20.88
Anderson 34
Santner 19.8
Neesham 18.5

 

[Zinzan]

And remove the top scores of our other players against top 8 opposition in the last two years and we have....

Williamson 60.48
Watling 29.12
Taylor 20.96
Ronchi 33
Nicholls 20.88
Anderson 34
Santner 19.8
Neesham 18.5

Is this supposed to be a point in Taylor's favour suggesting we'll really miss him based on what he's produced in the last couple of years?

Don't get me wrong, I'd still select him obviously, but I agree with those saying it's not the end of the world based on what he's produced in the last couple of years & a great opportunity to see someone else.

 

[Athlai]

Is this supposed to be a point in Taylor's favour suggesting we'll really miss him based on what he's produced in the last couple of years?

Don't get me wrong, I'd still select him obviously, but I agree with those saying it's not the end of the world based on what he's produced in the last couple of years & a great opportunity to see someone else.

Nah, more just the point that if you use that type of analysis, it's worth reflecting on what those figures are representing. Only Williamson has really played consistently over the last two years for our middle order. The rest of it looks fairly worrying.

 

[Zinzan]

Yeah, granted. Although you'd omitted Latham, who surely has been second to KW.

 

[Athlai]

Yeah, granted. Although you'd omitted Latham, who surely has been second to KW.

Middle order. I only ran the stats for 3-7. Presumably Lathams like a hundred 40s

 

[Zinzan]

Nah, I agree and I'm usually the biggest wiseguy. Incredible knock, it was, but his offerings around that have been obsolete as you say. I just don't see the fight in him anymore, and if his eyes are going too that's another significant barrier to performance. I think he's got one summer, best two left in him. So we need to be working towards a new plan for #4. Maybe that involves Latham 3 and Kane 4? Worth thinking about given the dearth of guys in domestic cricket scoring runs or putting pressure on Ross for #4.

Not a terrible suggestion if we could find a decent 2nd opener aside from Raval.

I'd still prefer Latham opening, since he is a very good starter, but I personally prefer KW at 4 in a perfect world & I've no doubt he'd fashion a better record batting there, just as I always thought Ponting would have.

 

[Blocky]

He's past it in the field, he's not performing with the bat and hasn't done for quite some time and he wouldn't be missed.

The problem is Taylor is an ATG batsman for NZ and we've not usually had talent of his caliber anywhere near the test side in the past, so it's hard to drop him because we keep hoping he's going to turn back into the 2011-2012 Taylor where it's more likely he'll never be at that level again, against tough opposition. He's been woeful outside of a few blips like the 290 against Australia (that saved an otherwise terrible season where he was averaging mid to low twenties) and his bullying of teams like Zimbabwe and the West Indies.

It's time to put the guy out to pasture, but we'll continue playing him for the next few seasons because that's NZ cricket to a tee.

 

[Blocky]

I think ultimately though, NZ selectors do need to suspend disbelief a bit more.

We have a bunch of players who have shown at certain points that they can do a job in the domestic scene who don't quite get the opportunity to sink or swim in the Black Caps. If Popli for instance had been taken away on tour instead of sent to English club cricket, would he have lost the form he closed last year out with? Guys like Brad Wilson who constantly you hear just doesn't have it for test level continues to show in domestic that he can do a job.

I'm all for guys like that being attempted first, before we go back to guys like Guptill, Rutherford and such who had chances and proved they weren't up to it.

 

[Zinzan]

He's past it in the field, he's not performing with the bat and hasn't done for quite some time and he wouldn't be missed.

The problem is Taylor is an ATG batsman for NZ and we've not usually had talent of his caliber anywhere near the test side in the past, so it's hard to drop him because we keep hoping he's going to turn back into the 2011-2012 Taylor where it's more likely he'll never be at that level again, against tough opposition. He's been woeful outside of a few blips like the 290 against Australia (that saved an otherwise terrible season where he was averaging mid to low twenties) and his bullying of teams like Zimbabwe and the West Indies.

It's time to put the guy out to pasture, but we'll continue playing him for the next few seasons because that's NZ cricket to a tee.

Just because his injury isn't the biggest deal, there's no need to take it to the other extreme considering it's not like we have Test class batsmen lined up ready to go.

If everyone is fit, of course you'd still pick Taylor.

 

[Athlai]

He's past it in the field, he's not performing with the bat and hasn't done for quite some time and he wouldn't be missed.

The problem is Taylor is an ATG batsman for NZ and we've not usually had talent of his caliber anywhere near the test side in the past, so it's hard to drop him because we keep hoping he's going to turn back into the 2011-2012 Taylor where it's more likely he'll never be at that level again, against tough opposition. He's been woeful outside of a few blips like the 290 against Australia (that saved an otherwise terrible season where he was averaging mid to low twenties) and his bullying of teams like Zimbabwe and the West Indies.

It's time to put the guy out to pasture, but we'll continue playing him for the next few seasons because that's NZ cricket to a tee.

Domestically we don't even have guys really lighting a fire under Nicholls, we've got a surplus of options at 6 and 7 in our allrounders but the stock of guys 1-5 actually delivering isn't so hot at the moment. It's a shame because a year or two ago there were quite a few guys looking exciting but they aren't really delivering recently.

The top 5 runscorers domestically

Woodcock 427 @ 106.75 from 3 matches
Wilson 400 @ 80 from 4 matches
Rutherford 359 @ 59.84 from 4 matches
Guptill 335 @ 167.50 from 2 matches
Ellis 334 @ 47.71 from 4 matches

Brooms 6th there? Maybe him?

None of the above fill me with confidence and when we're talking about Neil Broom, theres a voice in the back of my head that says, maybe Guptill at 5 wouldn't be the worst idea.

 

[Dan]

Even with Ross batting badly and/or having lost it, who in NZ domestix is actually better at this stage? I mean, Nicholls is arguably more uninspiring than Taylor in the middle order right now.