New Zealand doom and gloom thread

[SteveNZ]

Hello darkness my old friend...

 

[Zinzan]

You certainly won't hear me complaining about NZ only getting 2 test series again for a while, that is for sure.

I feel we're well and truly back to where we were in 2012.

If you take out the weakest SL side to ever come to our shores since they were brand new to Test cricket in the 80s & that mini tour of Zim, our 10 Tests vs. Aust home and away, SA away & now India away have exposed us enormously, especially our batting. We looked so far outclassed it wasn't even funny.

The drawn series vs. England is a long way away now.

 

[RossTaylorsBox]

How much do we miss McCullum?

 

[Zinzan]

Massively & not for his batting or even his tactical nous, but for his attitude and more than that, the courage he demanded of his side.

These tours of SA & India were played as NZ teams have in the past. Meek, defensive, negative, pushing and prodding against the spin. We allowed Ashwin and the screamer to bowl wherever the hell they wanted and to have men surrounding the bat. And we'd sit in our crease and push and prod.

Taylor finally in CBF mode, started using his feet in that last innings. Where the hell was that earlier in the series? We still would have loss the series 3-0, but I would have liked to see us trying to actually put pressure in their spinners and more importantly their field placements rather that just waiting for the invariable ball with their name on it. I felt we played right into Ashwin. Screamers & Kohli's hands throughout.

England should learn a lot from this spineless NZ batting approach. Not saying it's easy facing Ashwin and Scream in their own backyard, but man you've got to have a gameplan that doesn't involve staying on the crease and just waiting for one to have your name on it.

 

[Burgey]

I didn't see a great deal of this series but in general are batsmen these days a bit too reluctant to go back to spinners? Obviously watching Australia in SL was tragic, but there was a lot of lunging forward instead of picking up the length and, where appropriate playing back.

 

[honestbharani]

KW was dismissed 4 times by Ashwin on the backfoot though..

 

[OverratedSanity]

Hmm, not really. Felt Latham and KW made a conscious effort to use smart back foot play whenever possible. Ironically, KW got out repeatedly playing on the back foot to Ashwin.

Edit: @ Burgey

 

[Burgey]

As I said, i didn't see the series, was thinking more in terms of the trend of the lesser spin-playing sides go about it. I also don't know that the old #intent thing really works that well as a predetermined plan. Some of the dismissals of Australian players in SL were flat out embarrassing. Not much looks worse when you're in the **** and you come down the track, miss it and get stumped by four yards.

 

[Zinzan]

As I said, i didn't see the series, was thinking more in terms of the trend of the lesser spin-playing sides go about it. I also don't know that the old #intent thing really works that well as a predetermined plan. Some of the dismissals of Australian players in SL were flat out embarrassing. Not much looks worse when you're in the **** and you come down the track, miss it and get stumped by four yards.

That's true, there's always a fine line between aggressive intent & straight-out premeditation. You need to be calculated about it. I feel it's more calculated attempting sweep shots & using your feet & actually putting some pressure on the field, as opposed to pushing and prodding with the 3-4 close-in fielders as NZ were. in which it's only a matter of time before one has is going to play up.

 

[Zinzan]

KW was dismissed 4 times by Ashwin on the backfoot though..

KW is traditionally pretty good against spin due to his quick footwork, so I'm not sure his tactics were necessarily wrong. Ashwin was just far too good for him, there's no escaping it.

I think by the end Ashwin had him psyched out.

 

[Burgey]

I remember as a kid being told the really good players of spin who used their feet did so by going back as much as going forward, to muck around with a bowler's length. It's not an easy thing to do.

They also used to say to look for where your singles are in the field, rather than thinking about hoiking everything just because it's slow. Not rocket science, I know, but I don't see much of it from Australian batsmen lately.

 

[Zinzan]

I've got a feeling Root will handle Ashwin & the Indians spinners far better than KW, so will be fascinating viewing.

 

[straw man]

These tours of SA & India were played as NZ teams have in the past. Meek, defensive, negative, pushing and prodding against the spin. We allowed Ashwin and the screamer to bowl wherever the hell they wanted and to have men surrounding the bat. And we'd sit in our crease and push and prod.

Disagree with this. It only really applies to Taylor, who was just awful, and maybe to a lesser extent Watling. I thought Latham, Williamson, Ronchi, Santner (at times) and Neesham in his one test were all very focused on being 'proactive' and all had some success, all averaging 30ish-40 and with a top score of 70-80. None went on to post big hundreds or rack up large aggregates of runs across the series though, and that hurt us.

 

[SteveNZ]

I mean, we could've blindly used intent and desire to come down the track and that might've got even more turned over in this series. If Baz was there, he might've been st Saha b Ashwin four times. You'd have to level our issues partly at coaching. Those guys just batted the way they know how. I'd be more critical if they batted a way they didn't know how - ie using their feet, which is something we never do. If it was okay for Hesson to suggest India wasn't a traditional opener's domain, and therefore was considering Ronchi, then it should have been okay for him (and McMillan) to plot exactly how we were going to bat against Ashwin and Jadeja. If that was 'sweep the **** out of it', then not sure that cuts the mustard for an international coaching team.

And when you lose 3 tosses in a row in India, with a couple of spinners who are at or near the top of their games, 3-0 is what you'll get 99 times out of 100.

It's not all doom and gloom. Henry showed in the 2nd Test he should push Tiny (heart) Tim for a spot over this summer and beyond. Boult was absolutely immense, he's clearly back to near his best - cant wait to see him bowl in the right conditions this summer. Santner took steps forward, Wagner was again brave and all those things we know he is etc.

But gloomily, Gup will probably continue to be picked, Latham still gets a nose bleed at 50, and it's hard to see where else our runs are coming with any sort of consistency from anywhere else than #3. If we win Tests over the next 12 months, they'll likely be 200 plays 200 plays 200 plays 200 (I know that's a tie, before anyone gets cheeky).

 

[Zinzan]

By positive intent, I didn't mean reckless & those example of Santner and Ronchi in particularly were good ones of showing what a little intent could do. My biggest gripe was the pushing and prodding from the crease with the 3-4 close in fielders. I just don't see the point in that, and felt we did that far too often. I liked the way Latham used to sweep against the spinners as an example, you need to have something else but defense to combat that relentless bowling.

 

[Bahnz]

We're definitely better than we were in 2012, but equally the NZ team of 2014-15 would mop the floor with this lot.

The lack of depth in NZ batting is now being hideously exposed. We were fortunate in 2014/15 to have close to the greatest top 7 an NZ side has ever put on the field. Unless Latham starts converting his starts, Ross starts contributing, BJ stops throwing away his wicket and Santner is moved down to 8, we simply won't have enough runs to compete with the better sides and will continue to get demolished.

 

[Howe_zat]

Massively & not for his batting or even his tactical nous, but for his attitude and more than that, the courage he demanded of his side.

Can't agree with that, in this case like most others the simplest answer is the correct one, success breeds success in a batting order

 

[Zinzan]

The lack of depth in NZ batting is now being hideously exposed. We were fortunate in 2014/15 to have close to the greatest top 7 an NZ side has ever put on the field..

Funny you say that, because McCullum and Fulton are the only missing from a random scorecard from mid 2014 in the series win in the Windies, & we don't miss Two-meter Pete. 1st Test: West Indies v New Zealand at Kingston, Jun 8-11, 2014 | Cricket Scorecard | ESPN Cricinfo Unless there's someone else I'm missing who's no longer available. I do think it's the approach & tactics as much as anything, even if the same batsmen were in better form two years back.

 

[SteveNZ]

By positive intent, I didn't mean reckless & those example of Santner and Ronchi in particularly were good ones of showing what a little intent could do. My biggest gripe was the pushing and prodding from the crease with the 3-4 close in fielders. I just don't see the point in that, and felt we did that far too often. I liked the way Latham used to sweep against the spinners as an example, you need to have something else but defense to combat that relentless bowling.

Yeah, and until I hear from the coaches that they prescribed something different and the guys went against the game plan/coaching, I'll presume we were totally and utterly unequipped to tour India and a lot of the 'blame' should be pointed at those who are charged with optimising the skills of this side. The bowling was actually pretty good, albeit fruitless at times on flat pitches against decent batsmen. The batting, apart from a few 50s and 60s, was not only inept but worse, seemed like it had no discernible approach or game plan (Kane apart). So it's really only the guy who basically coaches himself who had an approach.

It's all well and good to make World Cup finals, and to do it in familiar conditions in a game you're already pretty adept at. What I think most of us want to see is guys developing new skills. We aren't seeing Gup make any sort of adjustments to becoming a Test player, we aren't seeing Latham be able to build a Test innings, we didn't see many guys at all look like they had a clue in India...that's what makes a truly great coaching team and team itself.

 

[Kippax]

Yeah but we've all got to try harder to sell our plaudits a little more dearly at the levels below I think, try to refrain from getting our pants off and jizzing to Colin Munro's, Colin de Grandhomme's or Glenn Phillips' latest masterpiece. Trying hard to change the simpleton's culture and the general aggrandising of mental midgets at that FC level, and also at youth level, is our best bet.