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The ATG Teams General arguing/discussing thread

Zinzan

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Yup, unless you dropped Pollock, batted Sobers at 5 and included Lance Gibbs, not sure you'd want to split up those 4 pacers...

Not much between Smith and Greenidge for me, the latter was obviously far better to watch, but all things even I prefer a left/right combo upfront.
 

jimmy101

Cricketer Of The Year
No way would I wanna split up those four pacers. Infact, I'd be cheering for the RSA/WI team because I love that pace attack so much.

I also wouldn't mind seeing Bobby Simpson in for Hayden & seeing him form a spin duo with Warney.
 

Zinzan

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After reading through SeamUp's posts in the best ever RSA batsman thread I got to thinking, which was South Africa's strongest period?

Which of these teams would be the strongest?

Pre exclusion XI

Eddie Barlow
Bruce Mitchell
Jackie McGlew
Dudley Nourse
Aubrey Faulkner
Trevor Goddard
Jock Cameron +
Hugh Tayfield
Peter Pollock
Peter Heine
Neil Adcock

Herbie Taylor/Eric Rowan/Colin Bland/Denis Lindsay/Bert Vogler/Reggie Schwarz

Wilderness XI

Barry Richards
Jimmy Cook
Kepler Wessels
Graeme Pollock
Peter Kirsten
Clive Rice
Mike Procter
Alan Kourie
Ray Jennings +
Garth LeRoux
Vince van der Bijl

Henry Fotheringham/Ken McEwan/Hylton Ackerman/Lee Irvine/Corrie van Zyl


Post 1991

Graeme Smith
Gary Kirsten
Hashim Amla
Jacques Kallis
Daryl Cullinan
AB de Villiers +
Shaun Pollock
Nicky Boje
Vernon Philander
Dale Steyn
Allan Donald

Hershelle Gibbs/Jonty Rhodes/Hansie Cronje/Brian McMillan/Makhaya Ntini/Paul Adams/Morne Morkel
Post 1991, although I do like your wilderness XI... Paul Adams >>> ahead of Nicky Boje too, don't think you need rely on handy efforts with the bat from Boje, pick your best spinner.
 

SeamUp

International Coach
Indeed, Waite & Lindsay were on my mind & it could go either way out of those two & Cameron. Tough call.

Lee Irvine is definitely a good shout for the keepers' spot. But was he actually a full time 'keeper though?

You're right about Lamby & Greigy. If those guys were included, which they should be, then I'd maybe slot Smith in for Wessels. Tony Greig & Clive Rice would be competing for a spot in the side too.

The re-admission team was a tough one. I was looking at Adams for the spinners' role, but the team looked ridiculously lopsided with him in it so I opted for the all round abilities of Boje. However, the team still has maybe one too many fast bowlers. It'd be a tough call to drop either Pollock, Steyn, Philander or Donald. If I had to, I'd sub in Mark Boucher for Philander.
I just don't think either of those two can be left out. Their impact was huge. John Waite was our first to 50 test caps & opened the batting at times and kept while Lindsay probably broke the mould for keepers in his era. Very tough.

Lee Irvine was a genuine keeper. Just was so good with the bat and so aggressive and that is where he got into the team with Lindsay there.

I am thinking of getting a thread going with Currie Cup stats and Rebel tour stats. That wilderness XI certainly didn't stop there. Was thinking when Harsh.ag put Schultz in the since re-admission team as the left-arm option and another big player in that era was Stephen Jefferies as the left-arm option.
 

Coronis

International Coach
Who wins out of my combined Aust/Eng vs. Windies/SA - Post 1950 Test XIs? ..( QUAL: batting >1000 runs, bowling >20 wickets after 1950) hence ruling out the likes of Bradman, Hobbs, Hammond etc

Hayden
Hutton
Ponting
Chappell 7
Border* 6
Botham 4
Gilchrist+
Warne 5
Lillee 2
Trueman 3
McGrath 1


B Richards
Smith* 7
V Richards 6
Lara
G Pollock
Sobers 5
Walcott+
Marshall 1
Steyn 2
Ambrose 3
Donald 4

Many considerations... Was tossing up between Hayden, Boycott, Amiss & Simpson to open with Hutton, & decided on Hayden for the left-right combo. Considered May, Pietersen & Waugh in the middle order, but couldn't go past Chappell & Border at 4 & 5. Botham bats ahead of Gilchrist to keep to balance the left/right combos.

Could have considered Laker or Underwood as 2nd spinners, but love the pace attack of Lillee, McGrath, Trueman & Botham with the magic of Warne to follow.

Was tempted to pick Keith Miller ahead of Botham and Davidson ahead of Trueman, but already have too many Aussies :p and considered the fact Miller played half his Test cricket prior to 1950.



For my WI/SA combined XI, was considering Greenidge and even Amla as openers, but couldn't go past Barry Richards and Graeme Smith, helped by the left/right combo and Smith's captaincy skills.

Don't think there'll be too many arguments with Viv and Lara at 3 & 4, but I'm sure there'll be many with me selecting G Pollock ahead of Kallis or Headley, especially the former's bowling skills, but couldn't go past Pollock as a personal favourite.

There's a really good argument to include Lance Gibbs, but Sober's can bowl his spin variation. Not much between Garner, Donald & even Holding, but the pace attack of Marshall, Steyn, Ambrose & Donald feels about right.

Any major changes and who wins assuming it's a neutral Test pitch with a bit in it for all?
Its nice how you seem to want to ignore your own qualifiers for the WI/SA team...
 

mr_mister

Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
Interesting Pollock makes the Wildnerness XI while Lindsay is a reserve player for the Pre-exclusion XI

considering their test careers were basically in sync with each other
 

SeamUp

International Coach
Interesting Pollock makes the Wildnerness XI while Lindsay is a reserve player for the Pre-exclusion XI

considering their test careers were basically in sync with each other
Over-lapping always going to happen in these cases.

But Lindsay retired from cricket in 1974 at 35 years of age.

G.Pollock carried on playing till 1987 at 43 years of age so you can understand including him in that Wilderness team if you wanted to.

Lee Irvine retired quite young at 33 in 1977.

Eddie Barlow retired in 1983 at 43.

Barry Richards retired in 1983 at 38.

Mike Procter retired in 1989 at 43.

Peter Pollock retired early in 1972 at 31 years of age to take up a career in journalism.
 

Coronis

International Coach
Over-lapping always going to happen in these cases.

But Lindsay retired from cricket in 1974 at 35 years of age.

G.Pollock carried on playing till 1987 at 43 years of age so you can understand including him in that Wilderness team if you wanted to.

Lee Irvine retired quite young at 33 in 1977.

Eddie Barlow retired in 1983 at 43.

Barry Richards retired in 1983 at 38.

Mike Procter retired in 1989 at 43.

Peter Pollock retired early in 1972 at 31 years of age to take up a career in journalism.
The true greats play til 43, sorry Barry.
 

jimmy101

Cricketer Of The Year
Using the same parameters as the South African teams, here's the West Indies:

Pre 1970 (akin to pre-exclusion SA)

Conrad Hunte
Frank Worrell
George Headley
Everton Weekes
Rohan Kanhai
Clyde Walcott +
Garfield Sobers
Learie Constantine
Charlie Griffith
Wes Hall
Lance Gibbs

Seymour Nurse, Basil Butcher, Jeff Stollmeyer, Collie Smith, Sonny Ramadhin, Alf Valentine, Roy Gilchrist, Manny Martindale, George Francis

70s/80s (akin to Wilderness XI)

Gordon Greenidge
Desmond Haynes
Vivian Richards
Alvin Kallicharran
Clive Lloyd
Keith Boyce
Jeff Dujon +
Malcolm Marshall
Andy Roberts
Michael Holding
Joel Garner

Roy Fredericks, Lawrence Rowe, Richie Richardson, Deryck Murray, Colin Croft, Vanburn Holder, Wayne Daniel, Sylvester Clarke, Patrick Patterson

1990s - present

Chris Gayle
Ramnaresh Sarwan
Brian Lara
Shivnarine Chanderpaul
Jimmy Adams
Carl Hooper
Ridley Jacobs +
Ian Bishop
Curtly Ambrose
Winston Benjamin
Courtney Walsh

Sherwin Campbell, Phil Simmons, Darren Bravo, Keith Arthurton, Dinesh Ramdin, Mervyn Dillon, Kenny Benjamin, Jerome Taylor, Jermaine Lawson

-

My money would be on the pre 70's XI to be honest.
 

mr_mister

Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
Why is Boyce in there? Richardson/Rowe even Larry Gomes a way better choice, their batting is weak compared to the pre '70s team and they don't need a 6th pacemen do they lol? Viv can handle the 5th paceman duties if neccesary which it rarely was

maybe if Boyce bowled spin itd make sense, or maybe his stats are deceptive like Learies but he seems like a bad selection
 
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fredfertang

Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
Why is Boyce in there? Richardson/Rowe even Larry Gomes a way better choice, their batting is weak compared to the pre '70s team and they don't need a 6th pacemen do they lol? Viv can handle the 5th paceman duties if neccesary which it rarely was

maybe if Boyce bowled spin itd make sense, or maybe his stats are deceptive like Learies but he seems like a bad selection
Keith Boyce was a terrific player, but shouldn't get a place in an eleven when Sylvers is available, mind you I'd say the same for the other ten
 

jimmy101

Cricketer Of The Year
Oh whoops I left Boyce in there by mistake! But at least it got people talking ;-)

But yeah, either Rowe or Richardson should be batting at 6 in the 70s/80s XI
 

jimmy101

Cricketer Of The Year
This one would be a titanic struggle...

England 1st Test vs New Zealand 1999

MA Butcher
AJ Stewart
*N Hussain
GP Thorpe
MR Ramprakash
A Habib
+CMW Read
AR Caddick
AJ Tudor
AD Mullally
PCR Tufnell

Australia 5th Test vs West Indies 1984/85

AMJ Hilditch
GM Wood
KC Wessels
GM Ritchie
*AR Border
DC Boon
+SJ Rixon
MJ Bennett
GF Lawson
CJ McDermott
RG Holland
 

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