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***Official*** New Zealand in India 2016

Howsie

International Captain
You mean since he's taken 70 wickets @ 24 in the last 3 years and 39 @ 22 in the last 2, including a 6-fer in his only crack against Aust, having been sidelined to Bracewell?

Yeah, how dare fans rate him based on those numbers...

In contrast we have the great Tim Southee, who should never be denied the new ball... who's managed 54 wickets @ 40 in the last 2 years.
Perhaps you should elaborate on those numbers a little more. Southee and Boult are proven match winners, both of them have won us test matches. I couldn't care less if Wagner is picking up 5 and 6fers when the opposing team racks up 450, 500 plus or taking hauls against Zimbabwe for Christ sake. It's worthless really. Get back to me when he wins us test matches taking all 'these' wickets.
 

Zinzan

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Perhaps you should elaborate on those numbers a little more. Southee and Boult are proven match winners, both of them have won us test matches. I couldn't care less if Wagner is picking up 5 and 6fers when the opposing team racks up 450, 500 plus or taking hauls against Zimbabwe for Christ sake. It's worthless really. Get back to me when he wins us test matches taking all 'these' wickets.
When was the last time Southee won us a Test? And let's not include that dismal Sri Lankan side who toured late last year, because 1) they were almost minnows in their own right and 2) both Southee & Wagner took cheap wickets against them.

I get you like to be loyal to your ND boys, particular those two bowlers & that's fine, we all have our favs, but perhaps it's time for just a little honesty... Southee has been **** for over 2 years now and Wagner has been not just good in that time, he's been excellent.. in fact world-class.
 

hendrix

Hall of Fame Member
Perhaps you should elaborate on those numbers a little more. Southee and Boult are proven match winners, both of them have won us test matches. I couldn't care less if Wagner is picking up 5 and 6fers when the opposing team racks up 450, 500 plus or taking hauls against Zimbabwe for Christ sake. It's worthless really. Get back to me when he wins us test matches taking all 'these' wickets.
Off the top of my head:

Eden Park vs India
those tests vs Sri Lanka
Bridgetown vs West Indies
 

Zinzan

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With respect Howsie, for someone who placed so much emphasis on stats & numbers in that 'Kohli is overrated thread' you started, you don't seem to place much importance on them when it comes to your personal favs.

@ Hendrix, yeah I recall Wagner getting us back into that Test against India with crucial breakthroughs, including the key wicket of Dhoni which basically sealed it for us..
 

_Ed_

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Off the top of my head:

Eden Park vs India
those tests vs Sri Lanka
Bridgetown vs West Indies
Plus, if a team like South Africa is racking up 480, I'd probably take Wagner's 5/86 ahead of the "proven match winners" with their combined 1/221.
 

Zinzan

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That's a good point, it's not Wagner's fault the rest of the bowlers could only muster 1/221 on that seaming deck. 5/86 would normally result in the opposition being bowled out for 200-250.
 

Howsie

International Captain
Plus, if a team like South Africa is racking up 480, I'd probably take Wagner's 5/86 ahead of the "proven match winners" with their combined 1/221.
I think the difference in class was shown in those two innings during the last test. Wagner bowls okay and takes 5 for whatever, South Africa make 450 plus. Southee turns up in the second innings and South Africa are struggling at 120-7. That's the difference. Southee has the ability to completely kill a team, Boult likewise. Wagner on the other hand is sort of just taking wickets because somebody needs to but the opposing team will still always rack up massive scores. They're cheap wickets really.
 

Athlai

Not Terrible
Na Wagner's are anything but cheap wickets TBH. He works batsman over and is certainly in better form at the moment than Southee. That said, he isn't about to take the new ball, and his run in hard all day and chuck them down at high 130s isn't going to scythe through sides alone. Boulthee can win matches on their own, Wagner is a support bowler and on his own can only really save us from humiliation.
 

honestbharani

Whatever it takes!!!
Sounds like Wagner is kinda the ideal 3rd seamer any side would love, reading all this discussion. Why would anyone ever want to even consider dropping the guy who literally got a fifer in the previous test? And in India at times, you can basically open with one of your spinners if the tracks turn so much, and use one of your 2 seamers in basically the 3rd seamer role to get some control later in the innings. So I do not see any grounds at all for dropping Wagner in India. If the NZ selectors do that, they are dumber than every Indian selector ever and that is saying something, given the ones we have/had.
 

Athlai

Not Terrible
Sounds like Wagner is kinda the ideal 3rd seamer any side would love, reading all this discussion. Why would anyone ever want to even consider dropping the guy who literally got a fifer in the previous test? And in India at times, you can basically open with one of your spinners if the tracks turn so much, and use one of your 2 seamers in basically the 3rd seamer role to get some control later in the innings. So I do not see any grounds at all for dropping Wagner in India. If the NZ selectors do that, they are dumber than every Indian selector ever and that is saying something, given the ones we have/had.
Our spinners are pretty awful though. I'd be very surprised if the new ball goes to any of them.
 

Moss

International Captain
The pitches will suit India alright but I doubt we'll see the raging turners that were served up against the Saffers last year. No doubt NZ's spinners are the weak link in the attack, but considering Elgar took a 5-fer (and NZ rolled out India for 79 in the T20 World Cup earlier this year), I think India will be happy with conditions that are just helpful enough for the likes of Ashwin to exploit.

On that basis as a NZ supporter I'd look at playing three seamers (who are anyway the best bowlers in the side by far), drop Bracewell for Craig (therefore not losing much in the batting), and have Santner keep his spot as allrounder. Neesham and Sodhi would only come into picture if Santner and/or Craig have a real shocker in the first test.
 

Moss

International Captain
There's a good chance I'll be watching the Eden Gardens test at the stadium. Has anyone here been to a game there in recent times (tests in particular), any pointers on the best stands to watch from?
 

Athlai

Not Terrible
No massive Sodhi fan but I'd play him ahead of Craig.

Guptill
Latham
Williamson
Taylor
Nicholls/Neesham <- pending tour game/net runs
Watling (+)
Santner
Sodhi
Wagner
Southee
Boult

I personally think our strongest XI in all counditions would be that with the lesser of Sodhi/Santa dropped for a fit Corey.
 

Days of Grace

International Captain
How many left-handers does India have?

The answer may influence the Sodhi/Craig decision.

I'm leaning towards Craig because a tail starting at no.8 after bugger-all experience at no.5 and no.7 fills me with angst.
 

Daemon

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Craig > Sodhi for sure.

Craig at least has the history of bowling well once in a while.
 

cnerd123

likes this
Sodhi would suit the pitches better if they end up being like the South Africa tests. He's quicker through the air. Partner him up with Santa's slower, tossed up spinners, and you have a good pair to work over the Indian batsmen, provided they don't bowl too many bad balls.

NZ could actually get away with 3 spinners, one of Boulthee, WAGner and Neesham IMO:

Guptill
Latham
Kane
Ross
Neesham
Watling(+)
Santa
Craig
Sodhi
WAGner
Boult/Southee

Let JameyN take the shine off the ball, have WAGner pounding in for intense spells, and let the spinners work in turns based on whoever seems to be in rhythm in that moment.

If the pitches are flat then they shouldn't do this.
 

Zinzan

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Listened to the Doull/Neesham interview, and to be fair on Jimmy it was Doully suggesting he take the new ball with Boult and we play 3 spinners leaving both Southee and Wagner out.

The funniest thing of all is if they end up playing Bracewell....I honestly wouldn't put it past them .lol
 

OverratedSanity

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I think the difference in class was shown in those two innings during the last test. Wagner bowls okay and takes 5 for whatever, South Africa make 450 plus. Southee turns up in the second innings and South Africa are struggling at 120-7. That's the difference. Southee has the ability to completely kill a team, Boult likewise. Wagner on the other hand is sort of just taking wickets because somebody needs to but the opposing team will still always rack up massive scores. They're cheap wickets really.
This makes no sense. If anything, it's Southee's wickets that were meaningless since by the time he bowled that spell, SA had a massive lead. Wagner's wickets in the first innings atleast sort of kept the game within NZ 's reach.
 

Howe_zat

Audio File
So putting a few ideas from this thread together, let's consider Neesham the reserve batsman and opening bowler, Bracewell the allrounder, Latham keeping because Watling can't hang around, undroppable Wagner and undroppable Southee and a spinner opening the bowling.

1. Guptill
2. Williamson
3. Taylor
4. Nicholls
5. Neesham (2)
6. Bracewell (5)
7. Latham +
8. Santner
9. Southee (4)
10. Wagner (3)
11. Sodhi (1)
 

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