The ATG Teams General arguing/discussing thread

[watson]

Garner is a must for me. First bowler picked.

In overall ODI stats then I would tend to agree but McGrath has been an absolute monster in World Cup tournaments.

Overs = 325
Maidens = 42
Wickets = 71
Average = 18.20
Best = 7/15
Economy Rate = 3.97
Strike Rate = 27.24


Garner did well in World Cups too, but he still doesn't have the status of McGrath.

Overs = 90
Maidens = 12
Wickets = 13
Average = 22.23
Best = 5/38
Economy Rate = 3.21
Strike Rate = 41.54


I'm not sure if I'm doing the right thing but I tend to favour players who relish the pressure of the World Cup. Especially the QFs onwards.

 

[bagapath]

Am a huge McGrath fan.
But Garner's 5/38 in the '79 WC final against England is better than any other worldcup performance (arguably) by any other bowler including Pigeon.
By the parameters you've set Big Bird should be your first choice.

 

[watson]

Am a huge McGrath fan.
But Garner's 5/38 in the '79 WC final against England is better than any other worldcup performance (arguably) by any other bowler including Pigeon.
By the parameters you've set Big Bird should be your first choice.

Garner's 5/38 against England is probably the most iconic, but McGrath's performance against the West Indies in 1999 was also pretty special;

Australia's 1999 World Cup campaign was on the rails when they faced the West Indies in Manchester. Needing to win - or as it turned out, not lose - seven matches in a row to lift the trophy, the second stop on the road to glory was the Windies at Old Trafford. A sedate start to the tournament from McGrath was forgotten when he ripped the heart of Brian Lara's men, taking 5-14 inside nine overs. It was vintage McGrath; he snared the edge of opener Sherwin Campbell and then trapped Jimmy Adams first ball with one that straightened down the line. But he saved the best for Lara. After tying the master batsman down, McGrath produced the perfect delivery to a left-hander – a ball that pitched on middle and leg, beat the bat and clipped the top of off-stump. The Windies were rolled for 110, Australia won by six wickets and the march to glory rolled on.

ODI GOAT: McGrath v Pollock | cricket.com.au

 

[watson]

Agreed that the strongest bowling line-up is perhaps;

7. Kapil Dev
8. Wasim Akram
9. Shane Warne / Murali
10. Joel Garner
11. Glenn McGrath

However, that tail is too weak IMO. As much as I want to include Garner the addition of Pollock creates a more balanced team;

07. Kapil Dev
08. Shaun Pollock
09. Wasim Akram
10. Shane Warne
11. Glenn McGrath

I could essily replace McGrath with Garner and that would be OK, but Garner never led the attack. On-the-other-hand, McGrath is a natural leader and spearhead of the attack.

As for Shaun Pollock, I would put him in the top 5 because of his career ER of 3.67 and WC record which are both outstanding. With Pollock you lose only a little with the ball when comparing him to the likes of McGrath or Garner, But you gain a heck of a lot with the bat.

 

[The Battlers Prince]

Statistically perhaps, but Garner is pace, height, accuracy & aggression. When he's bowling at one end the guy at the other end has an easier job imo

 

[Red]

I'll just have both, plus Wasim

 

[Gowza]

Could just swap kapil for pollock, then you get garner, McGrath, wasim and pollock.

 

[watson]

I'll just have both, plus Wasim

OK I agree.

7. Kapil Dev
8. Wasim Akram
9. Shane Warne
10. Joel Garner
11. Glenn McGrath

Can't leave Kapil out. A batting SR of nearly 100 in an era when they used a plank with a handle for a bat, and the boundary was a picket fence rather than a piece of rope 10 metres in is too awesome to ignore.

 

[AldoRaine18]

OK I agree.

7. Kapil Dev
8. Wasim Akram
9. Shane Warne
10. Joel Garner
11. Glenn McGrath

Can't leave Kapil out. A batting SR of nearly 100 in an era when they used a plank with a handle for a bat, and the boundary was a picket fence rather than a piece of rope 10 metres in is too awesome to ignore.

I wouldn't necessarily call him a good number 7 in the present era where 350 is a norm. He hits big but at the same time is not that reliable with the bat. You should have only one between him and Wasim for n8, and Wasim gets the nod. I'll have someone like Andrew Symonds there. Much better with the bat and a genuine match winner at that, match winner in the field and a pretty useful bowler at times even if not as good as Kapil. In this era runs matter more anyway, so a better batsman gets the nod for me.

I find the 70s and 80s ODI players highly overrated when it comes to fulfilling the demands of the present era. They were happy with totals like 220 odd in 60 overs, you can't simply translate that to 350 in 50 overs. It's a completely different scenario.

 

[marc71178]

Who would you have as your middle order?

Richards, Ponting, MSD, Bevan

 

[The Battlers Prince]

I wouldn't necessarily call him a good number 7 in the present era where 350 is a norm. He hits big but at the same time is not that reliable with the bat. You should have only one between him and Wasim for n8, and Wasim gets the nod. I'll have someone like Andrew Symonds there. Much better with the bat and a genuine match winner at that, match winner in the field and a pretty useful bowler at times even if not as good as Kapil. In this era runs matter more anyway, so a better batsman gets the nod for me.

I find the 70s and 80s ODI players highly overrated when it comes to fulfilling the demands of the present era. They were happy with totals like 220 odd in 60 overs, you can't simply translate that to 350 in 50 overs. It's a completely different scenario.

Flat pitches, small field size, heavier bats, fielding restrictions. May not make up the whole difference, but does go some of the way

 

[AldoRaine18]

Flat pitches, small field size, heavier bats, fielding restrictions. May not make up the whole difference, but does go some of the way

Goes back to the age old roadblock of comparing different eras, which honestly can't be done objectively. It's all conjecture at the end.

Kapil's batting isn't something I found that special, to be honest. Of course someone like Viv would be an absolute gun in this era as well, given he was simply a fantastic batsman all across the board but then someone like Kapil could be a useful batsman or easily could be another Yusuf Pathan.

 

[watson]

I wouldn't necessarily call him a good number 7 in the present era where 350 is a norm. He hits big but at the same time is not that reliable with the bat. You should have only one between him and Wasim for n8, and Wasim gets the nod. I'll have someone like Andrew Symonds there. Much better with the bat and a genuine match winner at that, match winner in the field and a pretty useful bowler at times even if not as good as Kapil. In this era runs matter more anyway, so a better batsman gets the nod for me.

I find the 70s and 80s ODI players highly overrated when it comes to fulfilling the demands of the present era. They were happy with totals like 220 odd in 60 overs, you can't simply translate that to 350 in 50 overs. It's a completely different scenario.

If you are picking an ATG side then it really should have 5 real bowlers rather than a relative part-timer like Symonds. If Flintoff bats in his usual position at No.5 then you can achieve some batting depth by sliding De Villiers and Bevan down the order.

01. Sachin Tendulkar
02. Adam Gilchrist
03. Brian Lara
04. Viv Richards
05. Andrew Flintoff
06. AB De Villiers
07. Michael Bevan
08. Wasim Akram
09. Shane Warne
10. Joel Garner
11. Glenn McGrath

Having said that, Kapil Dev batted more often at 5 or 6 than he did 7 so he's perfectly capable of building an innings if required. His batting average is in the mid-20s and that is perfectly acceptable for a lower middle-order batsman at 6 or 7.

 

[watson]

Just checked the ICC Player Rankings. The all-time top 10 batsman are,

01. Viv Richards
02. Zaheer Abbas
03. Greg Chappell
04. David Gower
05. Dean Jones
06. Javed Miandad
07. Brian Lara
08. AB De Villiers
09. Hashim Amla
10. Desmond Haynes

Quite a few surprises to say the least.

Incidently, Kapil Dev comes in at No.64 on the list. Ironically this puts him just below Steve Waugh, but just above Andrew Symonds and Shane Watson. He is way ahead of Andrew Flintoff who is ranked 88, and Shaun Pollock who is no where.

ICC Player Rankings

Seeing as Kapil Dev is ranked No.17 in the all-time bowling list, and on a par with Andy Roberts, I think that I'll slot him back in at No.7 again. Especially as he is the No.1 ranked Allrounder with 683 points.

ICC Player Rankings

http://www.relianceiccrankings.com/playerdisplay/odi/all-rounder/?id=1850

 

[AldoRaine18]

If you are picking an ATG side then it really should have 5 real bowlers rather than a relative part-timer like Symonds.

Well, not necessarily, especially if you consider present day conditions where an extra quality batsman is much more valuable than a 5th bowler.

First of all, you are possibly going to have an attack of Murali, Garner, Akram and McGrath. It's good enough at the start as well as the death to do the damage.

Secondly, Kapil was a strike bowler for India throughout his career (he opened the bowling in 191/225 games) and here the bowling will not be opened by him. He doesn't possess the skill to be a good option in the middle overs, batsman will easily play him out. If you are keen on 5 bowlers, a second spinner or a handy 5th bowler who is more experienced in breaking partnerships in the middle is more suited to that role. This attack would likely be opened by McGrath and Garner with Akram usually taking care of the old ball. I can't see what Kapil adds to the team? Sure he is rated 17th in the bowling list based on his exploits as a strike bowler but those will not be of any use here.

Thirdly Ponting's WC winning teams showed how a 4 man attack with handy all rounders/part timers is more than enough especially in this era. You'll have your strike bowlers doing most of the damage and then all you need is someone who can keep it tight and take the odd wicket to break the partnership. Ponting accomplished that with ease with the likes of Symonds, Lehmann, etc. SL achieved that with ease with the likes of Jayasuriya, Arnold, etc. NZ were fantastic in tightening things in the middle with the likes of Larsen and Harris. WI did it with the likes of Hooper as the middle overs bowler. India won a WC with Yuvraj being fantastic as a fifth bowler.

Overall, it's difficult to see Kapil's inclusion over a specialist batsman. I respect the rankings but there is absolutely no way Kapil is at the same level of batting as someone like Symonds. Roy was a massive force and basically the Gilchrist effect in ODIs for Aus. That innings against Pak in WC 2003 is what he can do. And let's not forget, along with the Rhodes one of the best fielders the game has seen. Overall, he adds more to the team especially if it's a usual modern day run fest where even good bowlers are gonna get hammered anyway (look at Steyn).

 

[watson]

Decided to delve into the career of Kapil Dev a bit more and found this nice summary. After reading it I couldn't help but think that he was a much better bowler than is generally credited. Especially during the first half of the 1980s.

A statistical analysis of Kapil Dev's career | Cricket | ESPN Cricinfo

It seems that he was similar to Botham in that for a period of about 3 years he was 'unstoppable'. For example;

Period - 1983 to 1986
ODIs = 47
Batting Average = 31.25
Batting Strike Rate = 98.91
Wickets = 69
Bowling Average = 20.39
Bowling Economy Rate = 3.51


Re Tests it says;

Kapil's overall numbers are impressive enough, but what stands out are his bowling stats against the best team of his generation. In 25 Tests against West Indies, Kapil took 89 wickets, which is his second-highest against a single team (he took 99 against Pakistan). The average of 24.89 is his best against any team, marginally better than the 25.35 he averaged in 20 Tests against Australia.

In the 1980s, Kapil was among the best bowlers against a line-up that included Viv Richards, Clive Lloyd, Gordon Greenidge, Desmond Haynes and Richie Richardson. He dismissed Greenidge eight times in Tests, and Haynes, Richards and Dujon seven times each. In 19 Tests, Kapil's bowling average against West Indies was less than 23; among those who bowled at least 1200 deliveries against them during this period, only Imran Khan and Richard Hadlee, the two other great allrounders of the era, had better bowling averages. Ian Botham's numbers were a huge contrast to those of the three other allrounders, though: in 19 Tests he took only 58 wickets at an average of almost 36.

Re ODI it comments;

One aspect of his ODI bowling that stands out best is his economy rate. Admittedly, Kapil played in an era when ODI scores hadn't reached the astronomical heights they have today, but even among his contemporaries, his economy rate was among the best.

Of the 212 games in which he bowled at least five overs, 63 times he conceded fewer than three runs per over, which is 30% of those matches. Similarly, in another 32% his economy rate was between three and four. Only 34 times did he go at five or more per over.

 

[watson]

Quite like this team......

01. Sachin Tendulkar
02. Sanath Jayasuriyah
03. Virat Kohli
04. Viv Richards
05. AB De Villers
06. Andrew Symonds
07. MS Dhoni
08. Wasim Akram
09. Shane Warne
10. Joel Garner
11. Glenn McGrath

If a bowling allrounder like Kapil Dev, Imran, Flintoff, Pollock, Klusener, or Hadlee doesn't bat at No.7 then the best batting-allrounders to bowl the necessary 10 overs are Jayasuriyah (ER = 4.79) and Symonds (ER = 5.00) IMO. I don't think that you can leave all 10 overs to one part-time bowler as they are more likely to lose control.

Dhoni coming in at 5th drop gives excellent depth to the line-up. At No.7 he averages 47.76 and Strikes at 94.97. Top score 139 not out.

 

[The Battlers Prince]

Quite a nice side Watson. Strong bowling and batting. With Symonds and DeVilliers too you have two strong fielders in the circle, which is the reason I normally have Ponting is his fielding In the circle is worth a lot more than most other top class batsmen.

 

[kyear2]

Sachin Tendulkar
Sanath Jayasuria
Viv Richards
Virat Kohli
A.B. de Villiers
Andrew Symonds
M.S. Dhoni
Wasim Akram
Joel Garner
Muttiah Muralitharan
Glenn McGrath

Ricky Ponting
Kapil Dev


Strong batting depth, none of the primary bowlers should be taken apart and enough options to fill the 5th bowling role. Viv, A.B. , Symonds are top tier fielding options while Garber and McGrath and more than adequate in their fielding riles as well.

 

[honestbharani]

Multi Skill XI



Shane Watson
Sanath Jayasuriya
Kumar Sangakkara (wk)
Jacques Kallis
Michael Bevan
Andrew Symonds
Lance Klusener
Shaun Pollock
Shane Warne
Wasim Akram
Brett Lee



Specialists XI



Sachin Tendulkar
Brian Lara
Viv Richards
Virat Kohli
A B De Villiers
MS Dhoni (c) (wk)
Andrew Flintoff
Richard Hadlee
Curtly Ambrose
Shane Bond
Muttiah Muralitharan