***Official*** New Zealand Domestic Season 2015/16

[Jord]

wot? bloke has 50+ test wickets at a respectable average

and from what i remember SA were not happy to lose him

Wagner has been our second best bowler of the entire McCullum era and definitively the best bowler of the last three seasons, taking 50 wickets at 28 in 11 matches. He doesn't have the peaks of Southee or Boult, but he's taking 4.5 wickets per test the hard way, no ten fers, the highest match return is an eight fer, he generally chips two to three wickets for us an innings.

But we like pretty bowlers. We want Boult curving boomerangs at 145KPH, we don't want the Chris Martin/Iain O'Brien/Neil Wagner style workers who take wickets in all conditions regardless of the ball age

 

[Howsie]

Wagner has been our second best bowler of the entire McCullum era and definitively the best bowler of the last three seasons, taking 50 wickets at 28 in 11 matches. He doesn't have the peaks of Southee or Boult, but he's taking 4.5 wickets per test the hard way, no ten fers, the highest match return is an eight fer, he generally chips two to three wickets for us an innings.

But we like pretty bowlers. We want Boult curving boomerangs at 145KPH, we don't want the Chris Martin/Iain O'Brien/Neil Wagner style workers who take wickets in all conditions regardless of the ball age

Christ, what have you been smoking. Second best bowler of the McCullum era? You having a laugh son

 

[hendrix]

Christ, what have you been smoking. Second best bowler of the McCullum era? You having a laugh son

Why start Howsie, why start.

 

[SteveNZ]

Guptill-Bunce finally get his maiden FC ton.

Well done, it's more than deserved.

Agreed. I always thought he was destined to be a club bully who didn't have the game to make it at domestic level.

Some interesting shots to get out at EPOO, as per usual. How hard is it to not get out bowled to a left-arm spinner bowling over, if you're slog sweeping?

And where's Bob Nicol?

 

[Hurricane]

Bacon better hope Nathan Smith isn't lured up to the capital I think, after I got into a friendly email exchange of ideas with Edgar.

I'm still waiting for Edgar to watch 100% of this video I sent him ftr -

Great video.

Bevan Small's action looks like silk.

 

[Jord]

Christ, what have you been smoking. Second best bowler of the McCullum era? You having a laugh son

See, New Zealanders liking their pretty bowlers again.

You could make a point that Southee should be rated ahead of Wagner in the McCullum era, but fair evidence would indicate that you're the one smoking something.

IMO, If you compare their career numbers side by side, they're quite even both career wide, and also under McCullum. They have respectable if not exceptional stats, although Southee relies a lot more on big bagfuls for his average and wicket column than Wagner does, Wagner doesn't really rip an entire team out but tends to chip in as previously mentioned.

Now, if you really do some analysis, you see that under McCullum, Southee has been completely average under a certain match scenario. Southee has taken 30 wickets from 12 matches at an average of 45 under McCullum in matches that Wagner has not played.

So not only does Wagner take more wickets per test match than Southee does (entire career, or under McCullum) in the games they both play, he also generates more wickets per test for Southee in the matches they play together too.

But Southee sure bowls pretty.

 

[Jord]

Just for comparison

Under McCullum

Trent Boult

Without Wagner: 14 matches, 49 Wickets @ 33.4
With Wagner: 17 Matches, 72 wickets @ 26.2
Overall: 31 Matches, 121 Wickets @ 29.1

Southee

Without Wagner: 12 Matches, 30 Wickets @ 45
With Wagner: 15 Matches, 71 Wickets @ 23.7
Overall: 27 Matches, 101 Wickets @ 30.2

Wagner in that time frame

17 Matches, 70 Wickets @ 31.3

And it's no surprise that McCullum's record with Wagner,adverse to without is much different too.

 

[Neil Young]

We want Boult curving boomerangs at 145KPH, we don't want the Chris Martin/Iain O'Brien/Neil Wagner style workers who take wickets in all conditions regardless of the ball age

FFS, what have I just stumbled upon?

Would you really want Iain O'Brien over Trent Boult bowling 145kph boomerangs?

Jord, eat some pie.

 

[brockley]

How many S Africans playing NZ domestic cricket?

 

[Jord]

FFS, what have I just stumbled upon?

Would you really want Iain O'Brien over Trent Boult bowling 145kph boomerangs?

Jord, eat some pie.

Current Trent Boult doesn't bowl 145kph boomerangs. I'd much rather Iain O'Brien bowling 140kph.

Also, what is it with you guys and insults? I'm getting sick of reporting posts.

 

[Neil Young]

Current Trent Boult doesn't bowl 145kph boomerangs. I'd much rather Iain O'Brien bowling 140kph.

Also, what is it with you guys and insults? I'm getting sick of reporting posts.

I'm only one bloke and eating pie is no bad thing, Jord. Barely registers as an insult, surely.

No, Boult doesn't currently bowl 145kph boomerangs, which makes your even more vague to me. Boult is a better bowler than Wagner. Maybe not in every spell in every test, but he's a better bowler generally and is picked for that reason.

 

[The Hutt Rec]

Someone please tell me to eat some pie. I'll be only too happy to comply. Or ... comPIE?

Those stats sort of ignore that Wagner only played one test against Aus, whereas the rest played every test against them. Alright, Wagner did well in his one test and I don't think should ever have been left out, but those stats are skewed by that.

 

[SteveNZ]

Just for comparison

Under McCullum

Trent Boult

Without Wagner: 14 matches, 49 Wickets @ 33.4
With Wagner: 17 Matches, 72 wickets @ 26.2
Overall: 31 Matches, 121 Wickets @ 29.1

Southee

Without Wagner: 12 Matches, 30 Wickets @ 45
With Wagner: 15 Matches, 71 Wickets @ 23.7
Overall: 27 Matches, 101 Wickets @ 30.2

Wagner in that time frame

17 Matches, 70 Wickets @ 31.3

And it's no surprise that McCullum's record with Wagner,adverse to without is much different too.

But doesn't that suggest both Boult and Southee at least were on par or outbowled Wagner, given their averages in not only those matches, but overall under McCullum are lower? Or are you saying Wagner makes them better bowlers? Tenuous, given both those guys get the ball - and possibly half their wickets - before Wagner gets to the crease. And the averages without Wagner aren't exactly your smoking gun if you consider who those Tests were played against - ie 4 v Australia (3 in Australia), Pakistan in UAE etc and that Wagner was often selected as a fourth seamer on conducive wickets.

Anyway, Wagner is a lock for our XI anyway so there's no need to argue the merits. He's a first change bowler, the others are new ball bowlers, they all fit in a side. Done. He's a fine bowler who deserves to not even be part of a selectorial debate anymore. And unlike Mark Reason and the other wowsers, I am fine with him bowling bumpers at any competent batsmen he pleases to.

 

[Jord]

Someone please tell me to eat some pie. I'll be only too happy to comply. Or ... comPIE?

Those stats sort of ignore that Wagner only played one test against Aus, whereas the rest played every test against them. Alright, Wagner did well in his one test and I don't think should ever have been left out, but those stats are skewed by that.

The argument isn't that "Neil Wagner is a better bowler on his day than Tim Southee is" - Tim Southee is infinitely better "on his day" than pretty much any bowler NZ has had that wasn't named Hadlee. The problem is that those days are highly inconsistent while Wagner turns up and does something pretty much every single test he plays.

As you point out, the one test he did get highlighted the difference as he took seven wickets at 23 in his first crack at the Australians, despite not getting the ball until the 39th over of the first test. Southee and Boult both need conditions in their favor to be threatening and do not have a Plan B when the ball stops moving. They're ineffective at working batsmen over in the same way that Wagner (O'Brien used to also ) can.

Just out of interest, other seam options used during McCullum's captaincy.

Bracewell: 12 Tests, 27 wickets at 49.85
Henry: 4 Tests, 10 Wickets at 63.2
Anderson: 13 Matches, 16 wickets at 41.

IMO, You really have to ignore every single positive factor about Wagner as well as ignore every single negative factor about Southee during the McCullum captaincy to think Southee has been the better performer.

 

[Jord]

But doesn't that suggest both Boult and Southee at least were on par or outbowled Wagner, given their averages in not only those matches, but overall under McCullum are lower? Or are you saying Wagner makes them better bowlers? Tenuous, given both those guys get the ball - and possibly half their wickets - before Wagner gets to the crease. And the averages without Wagner aren't exactly your smoking gun if you consider who those Tests were played against - ie 4 v Australia (3 in Australia), Pakistan in UAE etc and that Wagner was often selected as a fourth seamer on conducive wickets.

Anyway, Wagner is a lock for our XI anyway so there's no need to argue the merits. He's a first change bowler, the others are new ball bowlers, they all fit in a side. Done. He's a fine bowler who deserves to not even be part of a selectorial debate anymore. And unlike Mark Reason and the other wowsers, I am fine with him bowling bumpers at any competent batsmen he pleases to.

IMO, you have to ignore how badly both Boult and Southee have bowled against Australia to say that "Well the stats are inflated by the fact they had to play Australia", neither of them were even par, they've been the disappointment of the entire season so you can point to the Australian matches, but then you have to ignore the one chance Wagner got at them, he managed to do the job.

As for your statement that they take their wickets before Wagner even bowls, I just remember Wagner dismissing too many top order players for that to be true.

 

[Bahnz]

Anyone who watched Southee bowl in the sub-continent in 2012 or WI in 2014 will know that the "Southee needs helpful conditions to be good" argument is rubbish. Ditto for Boult in the UAE. When they're focused and in rhythm they can bowl with the pace and accuracy needed to take wickets even when there's nothing in the surface. Unfortunately that focus and rhythm has been missing for nearly a year now (arguably longer in Southee's case).

Which isn't to say that Wagner isn't clearly miles better than any non-Soult bowling options in NZ - he is (at least until Henry learns how to bowl a consistent length or Milne learns how to use his pace).

 

[Bahnz]

But we like pretty bowlers. We want Boult curving boomerangs at 145KPH

I just remember Wagner dismissing too many top order players for that to be true.

Ok, now just waiting for Jord to call Taylor a fat, lazy prick for missing the Aus series so that we can confirm him as Blocky returned.

 

[Jord]

Ok, now just waiting for Jord to call Taylor a fat, lazy prick for missing the Aus series so that we can confirm him as Blocky returned.

wtf are you on about? Taylor had a side strain.

 

[Jord]

How many S Africans playing NZ domestic cricket?

Lots.

Off the top of my head

Grobbellar, Cachopa(s), Watling, Van Wyk, Viljoen, Wagner, Elliott

 

[brockley]

Thanx Jord,seems there more S Africans than Aussies.
Heard their another Saffie on his way 2 a club.