Yasir Shah tests positive for banned substance

[cnerd123]

Yea I'm all for giving Yasir a lighter sentence based on the circumstances and evidence.

 

[Furball]

Because a sportsman is responsible for what he puts in his body.

 

[hendrix]

Yea I'm all for giving Yasir a lighter sentence based on the circumstances and evidence.

Sorry, what evidence?

1. 13th of November: in Section 3 of the Doping Control Form he did not declare any medication other than Caflam - i.e. He did not enter his own BP medication in the initial declaration, let alone his wife's. He only relayed that he'd taken some tablet of something to the team physio. Not a doctor, not someone who knows anything about drugs, the glorified masseuse.

2. On 17th November 2015, YS informed Mr Robinson that he had subsequently been able to establish the name of the blood pressure medication given to him by his wife, and that this was ‘Atenolol’. There followed various communications (via email and telephone) between Mr Robinson and the Pakistan Cricket Board’s Head of Medical and Sports Science, Dr Sohail Saleem, during which they established that although Atenolol appears on the World AntiDoping Agency (“WADA”) Prohibited List in the P2 category (beta-blockers) for particular sports such as Archery and Shooting, its use in cricket is not prohibited.

3. The A Sample of the urine specimen collected from YS in Abu Dhabi on 13th November 2015 was analysed by Anti-Doping Laboratory Qatar, a WADA-accredited anti-doping facility, and returned an Adverse Analytical Finding (“AAF”) for Chlortalidone1 at an estimated concentration of 165 ng/ml.

4. He has suffered from high blood pressure in the past, and was prescribed Tenormin (a brand name of the generic drug Atenolol) in April 2013 by a doctor in Rawalpindi,
Pakistan.

5. His wife has also been diagnosed with high blood pressure. In October 2015, she was prescribed Tenoret, a brand name for a medication that contains 50mg of Atenolol and 12.5mg of Chlortalidone.

6. Dr Sohail and Mr Robinson were both aware of YS’s history of blood pressures issues, as well as his high level of personal concern for his cardiac health in light of his family’s medical history. At YS’s insistence, Dr Sohail had examined him during the Pakistan team’s tour of Zimbabwe in early October 2015 and found that his blood pressure was slightly elevated, but had instructed him not to take any medication until he had conducted various blood tests in Lahore upon YS’s return to Pakistan.


Those are the facts. He was likely never prescribed BP medication by "some doctor in Rawalpindi" (lol wtf type of evidence is that?). This is quite a clear case of cover up. IMO, the mistake here was that when YS's doctors wanted to figure out the cover up, they came back and informed the WADA that the substance was Atenolol. The doctors got the brand names wrong and should have said Tenormin.

 

[cnerd123]

Because a sportsman is responsible for what he puts in his body.

Man we've been through this.

Stupidity is not an excuse though..

Never said it was.

Stupidity != Cheat though.

Of course. Is this one of those occasions where you would consider a lighter sentence? And who do you think the onus of proving that it is indeed stupidity should fall on?

I would consider a lighter sentence

It's up to Yasir himself to prove it's stupidity, if it is indeed that. The WADA get to be the judge of this. All they know is he failed a test; it's up to him to earn a lighter sentence.

If they balance of evidence leans more towards 'dumb mistake' than 'trying to mask drugs', he should get a lighter sentence. If not, then standard punishment.

My opinion if he received durg training he can't claim ignorance. So I don't buy the ignorance excuse.

Its as poor as the cronje the devil made me do it excuse back in the day...

You not buying the excuse is irrelevant. It doesn't mean that ignorance and cheating are the same thing.

If you don't buy his excuse is another matter. Which i don't either. But from a technical stand point you are just plain wrong. There's no harm in admitting it

If you know what you are doing and still do that is willful. If he received drug training then he should be aware what is suppose to do. If he ignores that it is willful and is cheating...

Assumption is he ignores it. What if he doesn't ignore it? He forgets it. Then? How does that become wilful?

Ignorance over something you should be informed about could certainly be seen as willful. Yes you didn't mean to, but that doesn't excuse you.

I wouldn't necessarily frame that as cheating however.

Doing it on purpose is cheating.
Doing it on accident is negligence.

Both should be punished.

The anti-doping laws are primarily in place to disincentivize cheating, and secondly to protect the health of the athletes. You punish dopers because they are trying to gain an unfair advantage over other athletes, potentially at the risk of their own health.

The anti-doping laws are not in place to disincentivize stupidity. They are not in place to stop you from being a dumb **** in your off-time. No one cares if you're a dumb ****. No one cares how irresponsible you are. We just care that you aren't getting an unfair leg up over the other sportsmen.

The objective of the laws are not to force athletes to become smarter and better aware, the objective is to protect the integrity of the game and their health.

Obviously Yasir should be punished for breaching the law, and he has. But he has been able to successfully prove his actions were a result a stupidity, and as such he has received a lighter punishment. Because being stupid is not a crime. He is allowed to be stupid. He gets a slap on the wrist and a warning.

This is the perfectly logical and rational response IMO.

 

[hendrix]

Man we've been through this.



















The anti-doping laws are primarily in place to disincentivize cheating, and secondly to protect the health of the athletes. You pushing dopers because they are trying to gain an unfair advantage over other athletes, potentially at the risk of their own health.

The anti-doping laws are not in place to disincentivize stupidity. They are not in place to stop you from being a dumb **** in your off-time. No one cares if you're a dumb ****. No one cares how irresponsible you are. We just care that you aren't getting an unfair leg up over the other sportsmen.

The objective of the laws are not to force athletes to become smarter and better aware, the objective is to protect the integrity of the game and their health.

Obviously Yasir should be punished for breaching the law, and he has. But he has been able to successfully prove his actions were a result a stupidity, and as such he has received a lighter punishment. Because being stupid is not a crime. He is allowed to be stupid. He gets a slap on the wrist and a warning.

This is the perfectly logical and rational response IMO.

Yeah all that's fine except you need to look at the actual evidence, summarised in my post above yours. It's a complete cover up. Thinking of writing an article on it to be honest. It's quite glaring.

 

[cnerd123]

Sorry, what evidence?

1. 13th of November: in Section 3 of the Doping Control Form he did not declare any medication other than Caflam - i.e. He did not enter his own BP medication in the initial declaration, let alone his wife's. He only relayed that he'd taken some tablet of something to the team physio. Not a doctor, not someone who knows anything about drugs, the glorified masseuse.

2. On 17th November 2015, YS informed Mr Robinson that he had subsequently been able to establish the name of the blood pressure medication given to him by his wife, and that this was ‘Atenolol’. There followed various communications (via email and telephone) between Mr Robinson and the Pakistan Cricket Board’s Head of Medical and Sports Science, Dr Sohail Saleem, during which they established that although Atenolol appears on the World AntiDoping Agency (“WADA”) Prohibited List in the P2 category (beta-blockers) for particular sports such as Archery and Shooting, its use in cricket is not prohibited.

3. The A Sample of the urine specimen collected from YS in Abu Dhabi on 13th November 2015 was analysed by Anti-Doping Laboratory Qatar, a WADA-accredited anti-doping facility, and returned an Adverse Analytical Finding (“AAF”) for Chlortalidone1 at an estimated concentration of 165 ng/ml.

4. He has suffered from high blood pressure in the past, and was prescribed Tenormin (a brand name of the generic drug Atenolol) in April 2013 by a doctor in Rawalpindi,
Pakistan.

5. His wife has also been diagnosed with high blood pressure. In October 2015, she was prescribed Tenoret, a brand name for a medication that contains 50mg of Atenolol and 12.5mg of Chlortalidone.

6. Dr Sohail and Mr Robinson were both aware of YS’s history of blood pressures issues, as well as his high level of personal concern for his cardiac health in light of his family’s medical history. At YS’s insistence, Dr Sohail had examined him during the Pakistan team’s tour of Zimbabwe in early October 2015 and found that his blood pressure was slightly elevated, but had instructed him not to take any medication until he had conducted various blood tests in Lahore upon YS’s return to Pakistan.


Those are the facts. He was likely never prescribed BP medication by "some doctor in Rawalpindi" (lol wtf type of evidence is that?). This is quite a clear case of cover up. IMO, the mistake here was that when YS's doctors wanted to figure out the cover up, they came back and informed the WADA that the substance was Atenolol. The doctors got the brand names wrong and should have said Tenormin.

I actually haven't read the judgement. Just Ak84's post.

I have no idea how good the evidence actually is, or the quality of the judgement. I don't know of any gaping logical flaws. I'm just working off the assumption that the WADA is a competent body and were satisfied with what was presented to them, and made a judgement accordingly.

Assuming the judgement isn't flawed, I'm okay with Yasir getting a lighter sentence. That just has to do with the principle of how we punish cheating in sports. The actually nitty-gritty of the quality of the judgement is beyond my expertise.

 

[Daemon]

Yeah exactly. Assuming Yasir is telling the truth, a lighter sentence is warranted imo. Whether he is or isn't is fine to discuss like what Hendrix is doing, but to just waltz in and say it doesn't matter is too simplistic imo.

 

[StephenZA]

Sorry, what evidence?

1. 13th of November: in Section 3 of the Doping Control Form he did not declare any medication other than Caflam - i.e. He did not enter his own BP medication in the initial declaration, let alone his wife's. He only relayed that he'd taken some tablet of something to the team physio. Not a doctor, not someone who knows anything about drugs, the glorified masseuse.

Having now fully read the judgement, he quite clearly stated that it was Blood Pressure medicine, he was just not sure which one. This was relayed to the Anti doping doctor by the physio, while he was completing the form during the test.

2. On 17th November 2015, YS informed Mr Robinson that he had subsequently been able to establish the name of the blood pressure medication given to him by his wife, and that this was ‘Atenolol’. There followed various communications (via email and telephone) between Mr Robinson and the Pakistan Cricket Board’s Head of Medical and Sports Science, Dr Sohail Saleem, during which they established that although Atenolol appears on the World AntiDoping Agency (“WADA”) Prohibited List in the P2 category (beta-blockers) for particular sports such as Archery and Shooting, its use in cricket is not prohibited.

So this makes sense that he would go back and find the name of the drug he believed he had taken, and report it to the authorities. In this case his own blood pressure medicine. (he probably was not aware at this stage of having taken his wifes ... who knows?

3. The A Sample of the urine specimen collected from YS in Abu Dhabi on 13th November 2015 was analysed by Anti-Doping Laboratory Qatar, a WADA-accredited anti-doping facility, and returned an Adverse Analytical Finding (“AAF”) for Chlortalidone1 at an estimated concentration of 165 ng/ml.

4. He has suffered from high blood pressure in the past, and was prescribed Tenormin (a brand name of the generic drug Atenolol) in April 2013 by a doctor in Rawalpindi,
Pakistan.

5. His wife has also been diagnosed with high blood pressure. In October 2015, she was prescribed Tenoret, a brand name for a medication that contains 50mg of Atenolol and 12.5mg of Chlortalidone.

This is all undisputed by both parties he had a banned substance in his blood, he and his family suffer from BP.

6. Dr Sohail and Mr Robinson were both aware of YS’s history of blood pressures issues, as well as his high level of personal concern for his cardiac health in light of his family’s medical history. At YS’s insistence, Dr Sohail had examined him during the Pakistan team’s tour of Zimbabwe in early October 2015 and found that his blood pressure was slightly elevated, but had instructed him not to take any medication until he had conducted various blood tests in Lahore upon YS’s return to Pakistan.[/I]

Its also quite clearly stated that he was agitated by his high blood level and kept on complaining about it.... considering his family history this is quite understandable. So requesting for his wife to bring the blood pressure medication is no surprise.

Those are the facts. He was likely never prescribed BP medication by "some doctor in Rawalpindi" (lol wtf type of evidence is that?). This is quite a clear case of cover up. IMO, the mistake here was that when YS's doctors wanted to figure out the cover up, they came back and informed the WADA that the substance was Atenolol. The doctors got the brand names wrong and should have said Tenormin[.

Actually the evidence provided was an original medical prescriptions, ... so you believe that on top of doping he then had a doctor risk his career by faking a prescription?

So what does this all mean. While not in a law court this still is treated largely as one would in legal circumstances... he must provide a plausible explanation for the reason as to why a banned substance was in his blood. Which he did; other than all the documented evidence and people involved who witnessed and confirmed, it was then further confirmed by a specialist that a single dose of the medication 4 days prior could leave the amount of banned substance found (i don`t know if its alot or a little, they just mention the amount). There is no evidence provided that he is lying in some way, that he tried to conceal that he had taken medicine or deny anything. I know of no past history with regards to YS of having taken drugs or it being a problem within the Pak team. So he has been suspended accordingly as they do not believe that he was deliberately trying to cheat, but was found to have been negligent as he should have taken better care.

Do you have some sort of additional evidence to show that he was cheating and this is a cover up other than your belief that there is something fishy, or some sort of conspiracy?

Otherwise I see nothing wrong with the judgement. Was he foolish yes, I hope he has learnt from it. Now if he gets caught again, he better have a bloody good excuse....

 

[Daemon]

Actually the evidence provided was an original medical prescriptions, ... so you believe that on top of doping he then had a doctor risk his career by faking a prescription?

Just wanted to point out that it's super duper easy to get a prescription for almost anything in Pakistan.

 

[StephenZA]

Just wanted to point out that it's super duper easy to get a prescription for almost anything in Pakistan.

I was not aware of this but I can believe it...

 

[smash84]

I actually haven't read the judgement. Just Ak84's post.

I have no idea how good the evidence actually is, or the quality of the judgement. I don't know of any gaping logical flaws. I'm just working off the assumption that the WADA is a competent body and were satisfied with what was presented to them, and made a judgement accordingly.

Assuming the judgement isn't flawed, I'm okay with Yasir getting a lighter sentence. That just has to do with the principle of how we punish cheating in sports. The actually nitty-gritty of the quality of the judgement is beyond my expertise.

This. I am also assuming that WADA is competent enough to see through the bullshit and sentence accordingly.

 

[Tom Flint]

What on earth can a leg spinner gain from taking drugs ffs

 

[indiaholic]

Recovery..

 

[Daemon]

What on earth can a leg spinner gain from taking drugs ffs

Ask Warne's mum

 

[hendrix]

Having now fully read the judgement, he quite clearly stated that it was Blood Pressure medicine, he was just not sure which one. This was relayed to the Anti doping doctor by the physio, while he was completing the form during the test.

"Whilst completing the Doping Control Form, YS informed Pakistan team physiotherapist Bradley Robinson that, in addition to the anti-inflammatory medication Caflam, he had taken a single blood pressure tablet about 4 days previously"

i.e. he took one tablet of BP. No mention that he was on BP medication himself (probably because he wasn't), or that he takes BP medication regularly, or that he's been prescribed BP medication.

So this makes sense that he would go back and find the name of the drug he believed he had taken, and report it to the authorities. In this case his own blood pressure medicine. (he probably was not aware at this stage of having taken his wifes ... who knows?

if he was on BP medication, why would he only take one tablet in four days? Why not relay that he takes BP medication regularly?

This is all undisputed by both parties he had a banned substance in his blood, he and his family suffer from BP.

That's because it's impossible to dispute. You coult take any family in the world and claim they have cause to be on BP medication and/or statins.

Its also quite clearly stated that he was agitated by his high blood level and kept on complaining about it.... considering his family history this is quite understandable. So requesting for his wife to bring the blood pressure medication is no surprise.

This is evidence given by his own team doctors and sports scientists. The guys who have a vested interest in seeing him recover from injury as quickly as possible. And the guys who are responsible if he is indeed doping.

Actually the evidence provided was an original medical prescriptions, ... so you believe that on top of doping he then had a doctor risk his career by faking a prescription?

There are millions of doctors in Pakistan who will provide a prescription given enough money.

So what does this all mean. While not in a law court this still is treated largely as one would in legal circumstances... he must provide a plausible explanation for the reason as to why a banned substance was in his blood. Which he did; other than all the documented evidence and people involved who witnessed and confirmed, it was then further confirmed by a specialist that a single dose of the medication 4 days prior could leave the amount of banned substance found (i don`t know if its alot or a little, they just mention the amount). There is no evidence provided that he is lying in some way, that he tried to conceal that he had taken medicine or deny anything. I know of no past history with regards to YS of having taken drugs or it being a problem within the Pak team. So he has been suspended accordingly as they do not believe that he was deliberately trying to cheat, but was found to have been negligent as he should have taken better care.

Do you have some sort of additional evidence to show that he was cheating and this is a cover up other than your belief that there is something fishy, or some sort of conspiracy?

Otherwise I see nothing wrong with the judgement. Was he foolish yes, I hope he has learnt from it. Now if he gets caught again, he better have a bloody good excuse....

The evidence is that he had a banned substance in his blood, that he and his doctors have been warned about.

Once that is there, the onus is on him to prove his innocence. In this case the story concocted and the evidence has all been provided by the very people who are likely responsible for the doping. There has been no evidence provided by anyone not related to the PCB.

I ask you this:

If you knew you'd been doping, and you were randomly selected for a drug trial, do you think you might say on your declaration that you thought you might have accidentally taken something a few days ago? It's a nice convenient way to come back with a plausible cover up. And I think that's exactly what has happened here.

 

[hendrix]

It's actually quite outrageous that his own team doctors' evidence is mitigating. Like accepting evidence from Dr Ferrari.

 

[smash84]

There are millions of doctors in Pakistan who will provide a prescription given enough money.



.

There are no millions of doctors in pakistan

btw you only need to know a doctor and they'll happily write you a prescription, let alone giving them "enough" money

 

[hendrix]

hyperbole

 

[StephenZA]

"Whilst completing the Doping Control Form, YS informed Pakistan team physiotherapist Bradley Robinson that, in addition to the anti-inflammatory medication Caflam, he had taken a single blood pressure tablet about 4 days previously"

i.e. he took one tablet of BP. No mention that he was on BP medication himself (probably because he wasn't), or that he takes BP medication regularly, or that he's been prescribed BP medication.

if he was on BP medication, why would he only take one tablet in four days? Why not relay that he takes BP medication regularly?

He was clearly not taking BP medication consistently, nowhere does he say he was, what he said was his family suffered from BP (which was known by the Dr`s) and he had been prescribed BP medicine, which he would take when his BP was high. (depending on the severity of a BP problem, you can control it by diet and lifestyle, but you may still be prescribed the medicine for when it does go up, which happens)

That's because it's impossible to dispute. You coult take any family in the world and claim they have cause to be on BP medication and/or statins.

I doubt there is many people that can claim both parents and uncles all have BP problems, some of whom have died of a heart attack. This would be a very convenient to allow him to use as an excuse while doping.

This is evidence given by his own team doctors and sports scientists. The guys who have a vested interest in seeing him recover from injury as quickly as possible. And the guys who are responsible if he is indeed doping.

Which other Dr would give evidence? Only his personal Dr`'s would know his history... what you are effectively doing is questioning these Dr`s integrity.

The evidence is that he had a banned substance in his blood, that he and his doctors have been warned about.

Once that is there, the onus is on him to prove his innocence. In this case the story concocted and the evidence has all been provided by the very people who are likely responsible for the doping. There has been no evidence provided by anyone not related to the PCB.

I ask you this:

If you knew you'd been doping, and you were randomly selected for a drug trial, do you think you might say on your declaration that you thought you might have accidentally taken something a few days ago? It's a nice convenient way to come back with a plausible cover up. And I think that's exactly what has happened here.

He was never trying to prove his innocence regarding having the drug in his system. What he had to do is explain ''plausibly'' why this had occurred. He was found guilty of having the controlled substance in his blood but that it was an accidentally but negligently done and so was punished accordingly. There is no reason to question the integrity of the Dr`s and specialists involved, as there is no evidence that they are lying.

You may very well be right that this is a huge elaborate story, but ultimately there is no evidence of this. Your opinion is that they are lying. I look at it and find the story plausible, which he has also backed up with evidence and testimony. Until they show it is a lie I am willing to give him (them) the benefit of the doubt.

PS: Out of interest, (just to show how sad I am ) I found a nice review talking about diuretic abuse: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2962812/
Quoting from it.
"For the detection of diuretics in urine in sports doping, a single minimum required performance level (MRPL) of 250 ng·mL[SUP]−1[/SUP] is fixed by WADA for accredited laboratories (WADA, 2009e). Even though the relative potencies, metabolism and elimination properties vary dramatically (and result in different urinary levels) between the classes of diuretics (Table 3), the MRPL at 250 ng·mL[SUP]−1[/SUP] is sufficient to detect acute diuretic abuse by athletes. Lower dosages of diuretics are likely to be insufficient at causing the masking effect or dramatic and acute weight loss abusers seek."

So effectively the level found in his blood is probably not enough to mask another drug and/or provide the weight loss that is sometimes attributed to diuretics.

 

[hendrix]

He was clearly not taking BP medication consistently, nowhere does he say he was, what he said was his family suffered from BP (which was known by the Dr`s) and he had been prescribed BP medicine, which he would take when his BP was high. (depending on the severity of a BP problem, you can control it by diet and lifestyle, but you may still be prescribed the medicine for when it does go up, which happens)

I doubt there is many people that can claim both parents and uncles all have BP problems, some of whom have died of a heart attack. This would be a very convenient to allow him to use as an excuse while doping.

Which other Dr would give evidence? Only his personal Dr`'s would know his history... what you are effectively doing is questioning these Dr`s integrity.

Yes, I am questioning these Dr's integrity. What is the problem with that? This is a doping issue. I'm not going to rely on the integrity of doctors who have a vested interest.

It is outrageous that he was prescribed the drug in 2013 and yet there's no record of him having passed this information on to the WADA until well after the test was taken.

He was never trying to prove his innocence regarding having the drug in his system. What he had to do is explain ''plausibly'' why this had occurred. He was found guilty of having the controlled substance in his blood but that it was an accidentally but negligently done and so was punished accordingly. There is no reason to question the integrity of the Dr`s and specialists involved, as there is no evidence that they are lying.

You may very well be right that this is a huge elaborate story, but ultimately there is no evidence of this. Your opinion is that they are lying. I look at it and find the story plausible, which he has also backed up with evidence and testimony. Until they show it is a lie I am willing to give him (them) the benefit of the doubt.

So let me get this straight.

I ask a doctor to come up with any plausible story AFTER I've failed a drug test - providing ZERO evidence before the fact - and you're happy to trust the "integrity" of my doctors?

You're a very trusting person.

PS: Out of interest, (just to show how sad I am ) I found a nice review talking about diuretic abuse: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2962812/
Quoting from it.
"For the detection of diuretics in urine in sports doping, a single minimum required performance level (MRPL) of 250 ng·mL[SUP]−1[/SUP] is fixed by WADA for accredited laboratories (WADA, 2009e). Even though the relative potencies, metabolism and elimination properties vary dramatically (and result in different urinary levels) between the classes of diuretics (Table 3), the MRPL at 250 ng·mL[SUP]−1[/SUP] is sufficient to detect acute diuretic abuse by athletes. Lower dosages of diuretics are likely to be insufficient at causing the masking effect or dramatic and acute weight loss abusers seek."

So effectively the level found in his blood is probably not enough to mask another drug and/or provide the weight loss that is sometimes attributed to diuretics.

So completely irrelevant.

If levels of drugs in the bloodstream stayed the same over time I'd still be drunk from 3 weeks ago.