***Official*** Australia in New Zealand 2016

[Jord]

But as the key lead batsman in the side, wouldn't that come back to Clarke to actually do something about? Again, this is where I think as an Australian, you're just so not realistic about what most sides have to deal with in order to get results. The ENTIRE New Zealand batting line up (except Richardson) from 1997 through to 2007 had career averages less than 40. The career record of Shane Watson stacks up favorably against almost any NZ batsman outside our Top 5 yet he's one of the worst top order players Australia had. You're trying to claim he didn't have the team to have favorable results but arguably with a much lesser team, Smith is doing much more.

 

[TheJediBrah]

But as the key lead batsman in the side, wouldn't that come back to Clarke to actually do something about? Again, this is where I think as an Australian, you're just so not realistic about what most sides have to deal with in order to get results. The ENTIRE New Zealand batting line up (except Richardson) from 1997 through to 2007 had career averages less than 40. The career record of Shane Watson stacks up favorably against almost any NZ batsman outside our Top 5 yet he's one of the worst top order players Australia had. You're trying to claim he didn't have the team to have favorable results but arguably with a much lesser team, Smith is doing much more.

I feel like you're not listening to what other people are saying. They are talking solely about tactics as far as I can tell. A lot of what you're saying, regardless if it's right or wrong, is not particularly relevant.

 

[Spark]

I feel like you're not listening to what other people are saying. They are talking solely about tactics as far as I can tell. A lot of what you're saying, regardless if it's right or wrong, is not particularly relevant.

Yep.

Plus, Smith hasn't been in charge long enough to make any judgements about his captaincy. I wasn't that impressed that summer, but I've been more impressed this summer (I've really liked the way he's aggressively used Marsh as a frontline bowler, though granted that's been mandated sometimes). It's really too early to tell. Hardly sensible to stack up his results against Clarke when basically all his Tests have been at home, which is not where we have had problems over the last 5-10 years.

 

[Zinzan]

It's quite weird the extreme views people have on this for me.

Was Clarke a bad skipper?

Absolutely not, in fact he was actually pretty good & at times showed some great intuition & inspiration

Was he one of the best in the last 20 years or so?

No IMHO, he's not fit to lick the captaincy boots of the likes of Mark Taylor, Stephen Fleming & Michael Vaughan.

I'd say the actual reality lies somewhere in between. He had some good moments, some mediocre & some bad ones and overall was probably over-average in terms of skippers going around the tracks in the last 20 years or so.

I'm assuming when assessing the skills of captains others consider the talent captains have at their disposal as opposed to strictly their winning percentages.

I maintain that while Clarke didn't have the likes of Gilchrist, Warne & McGrath under him, he still had some fantastically skilled & talented cricketers under him, players others captains around the world would have been delighted to skipper. Johnson, Hussey, Warner, Harris, Starc, Pattinson, Ponting, Lyon, Hughes, Katich to name a few. Proper cricketers.

 

[Spark]

It's quite weird the extreme views people have on this for me.

Was Clarke a bad skipper?

Absolutely not, in fact he was actually pretty good & at times showed some great intuition & inspiration

Was he one of the best in the last 20 years or so?

No IMHO, he's not fit to lick the captaincy boots of the likes of Mark Taylor, Stephen Fleming & Michael Vaughan.

I'd say the actual reality lies somewhere in between. He had some good moments, some mediocre & some bad ones and overall was probably over-average in terms of skippers going around the tracks in the last 20 years or so.

I'm assuming when assessing the skills of captains others consider the talent captains have at their disposal as opposed to strictly their winning percentages.

I maintain that while Clarke didn't have the likes of Gilchrist, Warne & McGrath under him, he still had some fantastically skilled & talented cricketers under him, players others captains around the world would have been delighted to skipper. Johnson, Hussey, Warner, Harris, Starc, Pattinson, Ponting, Lyon, Hughes, Katich to name a few. Proper cricketers.

itstl

 

[TheJediBrah]

It's quite weird the extreme views people have on this for me.

Was Clarke a bad skipper?

Absolutely not, in fact he was actually pretty good & at times showed some great intuition & inspiration

Was he one of the best in the last 20 years or so?

No IMHO, he's not fit to lick the captaincy boots of the likes of Mark Taylor, Stephen Fleming & Michael Vaughan.

I'd say the actual reality lies somewhere in between. He had some good moments, some mediocre & some bad ones and overall was probably over-average in terms of skippers going around the tracks in the last 20 years or so.

I'm assuming when assessing the skills of captains others consider the talent captains have at their disposal as opposed to strictly their winning percentages.

I maintain that while Clarke didn't have the likes of Gilchrist, Warne & McGrath under him, he still had some fantastically skilled & talented cricketers under him, players others captains around the world would have been delighted to skipper. Johnson, Hussey, Warner, Harris, Starc, Pattinson, Ponting, Lyon, Hughes, Katich to name a few. Proper cricketers.

itstl

also Johnson was absolute rubbish most of the time, Harris/Starc/Pattinson all hardly played and Starc wasn't even good, Lyon was learning and never really anything special, Ponting was ordinary most of that time as was Hughes tbh, and Katich tried to strangle him.

 

[Zinzan]

Katich never played under Clarke, I stand corrected. Thought Clarke came in at the back end of his career around 2011, but I see Katich finished up in 2010,

Either way, still hardly detracts from some of the fantastic talent he had at his disposal.

 

[Spark]

Katich never played under Clarke, I stand corrected. Thought Clarke came in at the back end of his career around 2011, but I see Katich finished up in 2010,

Either way, still hardly detracts from some of the fantastic talent he had at his disposal.

It's just funny, given the whispers about Clarke ending Katich's career.

I mean it's a fair point, but all the talent in the world didn't seem to matter when the ball moved sideways. A consistent and baffling ability to perform to far less than the sum of their parts, that lineup.

 

[Zinzan]

itstl

also Johnson was absolute rubbish most of the time, Harris/Starc/Pattinson all hardly played and Starc wasn't even good, Lyon was learning and never really anything special, Ponting was ordinary most of that time as was Hughes tbh, and Katich tried to strangle him.

Relatively speaking of course, I'm talking across the world-wide talent pool at the time, not just compared to the great Australian side in the mid-2000s.

There's a famous saying about the New Zealand All Blacks that I think almost applies to Australian cricket and that is "There's never a weak All Black side, it's just some are stronger than others"...

 

[Zinzan]

It's just funny, given the whispers about Clarke ending Katich's career.

Yeah I now recall that whole team song Clarke/Katich dressing room tiff.

 

[hendrix]

Man management is at least 50% of captaincy.

 

[Spark]

Man management is at least 50% of captaincy.

Well, yeah, but that's not what's being debated here.

 

[Jord]

Moving on.

 

[Raffski]

Think Clarke was an excellent captain tactically in general (outside of the subcontinent at least). A couple of major missteps do stand out though:

1. Refusing to put a third man in for Ian Bell, Trent bridge 2013

2. The lolbad believing his own press declaration at the oval, 2013

That said if I can remember specific failures so clearly there can't have been many. Was a natural tactician imo, very rare among captains. Do think his man management abilities preclude him from being a great captain however.

 

[Zinzan]

Well, yeah, but that's not what's being debated here.

Well it kind of is in the respect that when assessing a skipper holistically, you look at everything from planning/tactical nous to man-management/inspiration to intuition/gut-feel right through to handling the media. If you feel we've only been debating his tactical nous, that's only a part of the big picture.

 

[Zinzan]

And yeah, thread has been de-railed, so I'll leave it there.

 

[Bahnz]

Jeez you guys have some stamina, I was bored of this discussion 2 days ago.

 

[Spark]

Think Clarke was an excellent captain tactically in general (outside of the subcontinent at least). A couple of major missteps do stand out though:

1. Refusing to put a third man in for Ian Bell, Trent bridge 2013

2. The lolbad believing his own press declaration at the oval, 2013

That said if I can remember specific failures so clearly there can't have been many. Was a natural tactician imo, very rare among captains. Do think his man management abilities preclude him from being a great captain however.

you have to be prepared to lose to win

 

[Jord]

What about the case of the NZ selectors who seem to be prepared to lose to lose?

 

[hendrix]

2. The lolbad believing his own press declaration at the oval, 2013

you have to be prepared to lose to win

Nah, that declaration was forced by the series scoreline. In the context of the series it was the right move.