***Official*** Australia in New Zealand 2016

[Gob]

Greener pitch beckons

 

[Moss]

Taylor > Clarke > Waugh > Ponting is what I've generally felt over the years. To add to the many points in the previous pages - this may not be seen as an essential aspect of captaincy, but as someone who can be a bit of a stick-in-the-mud when it comes to on-field behaviour I did appreciate that Taylor always seemed to be in total control of his men on the field and rarely let things get out of hand (as a contrasting example, Waugh IMO totally let himself down when he allowed Slater to self-destruct after claiming the catch off Dravid at Bombay in 2001. Felt very cynical at the time.).

Largely agree with the assessment of Clarke's captaincy by Spark above.

 

[Furball]

Rating captains with any sort of attempt at objectivity is really difficult because so much of what captains do is by rote and goes pretty much unnoticed. Or if you do notice it, chances are lots of captains would have done similar things. The Fleming/Martyn thing is a great example because everyone remembers that when Fleming captained a ****load of matches for his team, and that's just one tactic. What plans did he have for Darren Lehmann? ****ed if I know.

Then you've got the process of distinguishing a captain's tactical nous from those of his surrounding team, coaching staff etc. Australian cricket fans mostly rate Michael Vaughan highly because he had some highly visible plans in the 2005 Ashes that worked well, did a good job getting under the skin of the Australian players and arguably made them play worse by doing so, and above all his team won the series against a very good, highly rated Australian team. And then the English team got hammered in the return series, without Vaughan, possibly emphasising his importance.

But if you wanted you could easily put that whole series down to the English bowling attack, Australia's attack being past its best aside from Warne, and maybe a bit of Duncan Fletcher. And you'd be fair enough in doing so because all those things were important too.

Similarly most people don't rate Ponting because of a range of things, above all looking a bit lost sometimes when things weren't going well for his side, but he has a ridiculously good record as a captain. You could certainly argue he did some good things if you wanted... etc.

Realistically it's just the stuff you notice and choose to think are important, and personally I watched a lot of Australian cricket with Clarke as captain and think he was very good. Bowling changes, field placements etc seemed to work more often with him than with other captains, simple as that really. Mark Taylor is the only other Australian captain I've felt that way about. But Waugh and Ponting had much better records so again, it depends what you value or even just what you happen to pay attention to and attribute to the captain. I think maybe it's easier to notice the captain's work when they seem to have less to work with and to get the best out of players you didn't rate that highly before.

Vaughan's captaincy genius in 2005 was largely "**** it, let's give the ball to Freddie and see what he can do." England's bowling effort as a unit from that series is massively overstated.

Ok, I'm being a bit unfair as there were some cleverly thought out and executed plans (sticking a guy straight in the eyeline of Hayden to **** with him being one in particular), but a lot of his inspired bowling changes were simply yanking the ball out of the hands of Harmison, Giles or Hoggard and giving it to Flintoff or Jones. And he had way, way too much faith in Harmison that series, he bowled like an absolute drain 2nd innings at Edgbaston and Old Trafford.

 

[Furball]

You're the one claiming that Clarke had nothing to do with it, though, as if he just went "yeah run up and bowl". He had very clear ideas of how he wanted to use Johnson before the series started, and Johnson executed them to near perfection.

It was also the first time Johnson had been used in that manner. No-one ever thought of him as a short spells shock bowler before Clarke used him as such in 13/14, prior to that he was the fit as **** workhorse that you could rely on to never get injured and bowl long spells (when he wasn't bowling absolute ****).

Might actually explain why he was always a good ODI bowler because the limitations of the format mean that bowlers won't generally get 6-7 over spells at a batsman. Perhaps ODIs forced captains to use him optimally and no-one figured it out for Test cricket.

 

[OverratedSanity]

Terrible posting from Spark in this thread.


It's 2013/14 not 2013/4 ffs. Absolutely awful.

 

[Moss]

Vaughan's captaincy genius in 2005 was largely "**** it, let's give the ball to Freddie and see what he can do." England's bowling effort as a unit from that series is massively overstated.

Ok, I'm being a bit unfair as there were some cleverly thought out and executed plans (sticking a guy straight in the eyeline of Hayden to **** with him being one in particular), but a lot of his inspired bowling changes were simply yanking the ball out of the hands of Harmison, Giles or Hoggard and giving it to Flintoff or Jones. And he had way, way too much faith in Harmison that series, he bowled like an absolute drain 2nd innings at Edgbaston and Old Trafford.

Much as we are veering off topic, I'm glad this is brought up because it has long been a peeve(?) of mine; the closeness of that final-day result at Edgbaston was made possible because Harmison and Flintoff bowled utter tripe and tried to bounce out Lee and Kasprowicz. Practically no attempt at a decent line/length and it cost them a good many runs. Was one of the most brainless periods of bowling ever. Can only assume Vaughan didn't have a word with those two at the time.

 

[vcs]

Why didn't Clarke's captaincy work against SA in 2012-13? Genuine question, because I followed the series but didn't watch much of it. Australia had an outside chance of winning in Brisbane and got into a real winning position at Adelaide. Then at Perth, Smith, Amla and AB just took the game away from them in a couple of sessions. What went wrong from a captaincy point of view?

In the 2012-13 Ashes, Clarke did captain very well. I remember a few wickets were taken with unorthodox field placements like leg-slip, and the bowling changes, Lyon's usage etc. were all spot on.

 

[Furball]

Batting collapse and having absolute joke bowlers because everyone decent was injured IIRC.

 

[Spark]

Terrible posting from Spark in this thread.


It's 2013/14 not 2013/4 ffs. Absolutely awful.

Nah **** only the last digit changes

Why didn't Clarke's captaincy work against SA in 2012-13? Genuine question, because I followed the series but didn't watch much of it. Australia had an outside chance of winning in Brisbane and got into a real winning position at Adelaide. Then at Perth, Smith, Amla and AB just took the game away from them in a couple of sessions. What went wrong from a captaincy point of view?

In the 2012-13 Ashes, Clarke did captain very well. I remember a few wickets were taken with unorthodox field placements like leg-slip, and the bowling changes, Lyon's usage etc. were all spot on.

Getting shot out for about 150 would have to do with most of it. Amla played an incredible innings too, just could not stop hitting boundaries. After that it was a bit of a procession.

 

[vcs]

They actually bowled SA out for 220 odd in the first innings, only to get bowled out themselves for a 30-odd run deficit. It turned into a one-innings shootout, and the game was taken away from them while Australia were fielding. Also, the failure to bowl them out on day 5 at Adelaide happened on the field. I think it is fair to question the captaincy in a situation like this.

 

[Spark]

They actually bowled SA out for 220 odd in the first innings, only to get bowled out themselves for a 30-odd run deficit. It turned into a one-innings shootout, and the game was taken away from them while Australia were fielding. Also, the failure to bowl them out on day 5 at Adelaide happened on the field. I think it is fair to question the captaincy in a situation like this.

Mm, that's not really how it felt at the time though. It really did feel as if all the momentum was with SA after that first innings. You gotta take your opportunity at Perth, or you get killed.

 

[vic_orthdox]

Hastings on debut, a raw Starc - attack leaked runs against the best side in the world at the time.

And the previous Test they probably would have won with a fit attack. I know he's improved, but I'm not convinced that Lyon would be such a difference even now when teams aren't attacking him and trying to pad out for the draw. His best fourth innings effort (vs India at Adelaide) relied on them still in the main trying to look for runs.

 

[OverratedSanity]

Can't read much from that Perth test about Clarke's captaincy at all. Steyn bowled a ridiculous spell, Hastings and Starc bowled tripe, and Amla and Smith basically killed the match in one session.

 

[Jord]

So when Clarke lost (more matches than any Australian per win since Kim Hughes), you can't blame him, it wasn't his fault
When Clarke won, you can't give credit to the freakish performances by Johnson, it was all Clarke.

 

[Furball]

Nobody has suggested that.

 

[Jord]

I just don't see how you can have it both ways, saying he was a tactical genius without pointing out in many situations, he lost games he should've won and his record once you remove WI, India in Aus and Sri Lanka all makes pretty grim reading - 14 wins versus 16 losses.

 

[Niall]

So when Clarke lost (more matches than any Australian per win since Kim Hughes), you can't blame him, it wasn't his fault
When Clarke won, you can't give credit to the freakish performances by Johnson, it was all Clarke.

Exactly.


Its not just the dismal away record that hurts Clarke, look at all the players who he supposedly fell out with. Guys like Hayden, Symonds, Katich Buchannen and off course their was the farcical Indian tour where they were whitewashed and had players suspended after the homework scenario!

I genuinely can't recall a more farcical overseas tour since Pakistan toured England in 2010. Their was reports that Clarke was hated in the camp last Summer in the England tour where he was a walking wicket, this may have been bollocks, but I don't recall such reports coming out about Smith, Ponting or the unfairly maligned Cook.

Even Misbah who has been captain of Pakistan where players are notoriously melodramatic does not have players lining up to bash him like Clarke has had. Although some claim all these guys are bitter jealous haters.

I didn't see much of last weeks test, but from what I have been told and read here Smith was fantastic as captain.

 

[Gob]

NUFAN out of the 2nd test

Siddle ruled out of second Test | cricket.com.au

 

[Moss]

NUFAN out of the 2nd test

Siddle ruled out of second Test | cricket.com.au

Could be a little boost for NZ knowing Sidd's capabilities on wickets with even a little assistance in them, and as a foil for Hazlewood. Should be fun watching Pattinson though if he is fit to play.

Still, where Australia really have the bowling advantage is in the spin department and the 5th bowler.

 

[Furball]

I just don't see how you can have it both ways, saying he was a tactical genius without pointing out in many situations, he lost games he should've won and his record once you remove WI, India in Aus and Sri Lanka all makes pretty grim reading - 14 wins versus 16 losses.

At least I know that I should disregard you, so thanks.