***Official*** Australia in New Zealand 2016

[TheJediBrah]

The Craig McMillan bowling bouncers to Aus batsman with 2 square legs on the boundary was random af but worked pretty well too iirc

 

[Bahnz]

Tbf, Stephen Fleming get put into God captaincy status because he set two gullies and three point for Damien Martyn.

And, well done him.

Yeah, and Fleming was pretty average tactically. Brilliant at making plans, but not so good at adapting if those plans didn't pan out. The former is probably a big part of why he's been such a succesful coach.

 

[Flem274*]

mascarenhas is gone and replaced by shane jurgensen, who coached our bowlers during The Dark Years (2008-2010).

 

[Shady Slim]

there is so much wrk g with a two test series it's not funny, unless like it's against the windies or bangladesh in aus where everyone knows what'll happen

 

[Zinzan]

Yeah, and Fleming was pretty average tactically. Brilliant at making plans, but not so good at adapting if those plans didn't pan out. The former is probably a big part of why he's been such a succesful coach.

Yeah, possibly found wanting a little when plan A didn't work, but I think that was more a function of his bowling attack (minus Bond which was most of the time). Overall I'd still say he was very good tactically and one of the best skippers in the last 20 years or so.

 

[Zinzan]

BTW, I agree with Jord & OS that Clarke's captaincy is being massively overrated here.

For Furball to go as far as saying he's the best he's ever seen seems utterly bizarre given I don't think Fur is young enough to have missed out on the likes of Michael Vaughan & Stephen Fleming among others.

I'd like to have seen how Clarke would have done skippering Fleming side around the time that Scott Styris (along with Flem) was about our best test batsman going around & Chris Martin our best bowler. To turn it around, give Stephen Fleming even that supposedly relatively weak Aust side Clarke inherited and I think he would have been on seventh heaven with the talent.. Johnson & Rhino's bowling, Clarke & Warner's batting etc, Fleming wouldn't have believed his luck.

 

[Zinzan]

The Craig McMillan bowling bouncers to Aus batsman with 2 square legs on the boundary was random af but worked pretty well too iirc

Haha, I remember at the time thinking what the hell is McMillan persisting with 128kms bouncers to these Australia batsmen. The he suddenly picked up 3 quick wickets and Aust went from about 0-200 to 6-260 in next to no time at all.

 

[Zinzan]

Having been on this forum for several years and talked to quite a number of the aforementioned, can confirm that they would give exactly the same answer, and often did. They often took great glee in observing just how desperately mediocre the team, which was very clearly the weakest we had fielded since the mid-80s, actually was.

Tbf on Jord, he's right in pointing out Clarke's early sides may have been mediocre relative to other Australian sides in the previous 20 years, but they were by no means mediocre by world wide standards. I'd like to see the personnel of this terribly mediocre XI you're referring to exactly.

When I think I the early Clarke-skippered sides I think of batsmen such as a young Warner, Hughes, an admittedly aging Ponting, Hussey, Clarke himself, a more than useful keeper in Haddin & bowlers such as Johnson, Pattinson, a young Lyon, a young Starc & Siddle etc. That's not Gilchrist, McGrath & Warne, but that's still some damn talented cricketers.

 

[Jord]

Dan summed it up though, he compared Clarke to Ponting. The reality is that you could compare most club cricketers captaincy to Ponting pretty favorably. Apparently Clarke is a tactical genius because he used a strike bowler as a strike bowler, Ponting was too stupid to do so.

 

[Zinzan]

Well yeah, everyone knows a chimp could've skippered that side Ponting inherited in 2003/04 & won.



Wait on....

 

[Zinzan]

mascarenhas is gone and replaced by shane jurgensen, who coached our bowlers during The Dark Years (2008-2010).

Temporary for subcontinent experience in the T20 WC only... surely...

Better damn well be temporary

 

[Compton]

It seemed like every other test match Clarke would take the ball from one of his new ball bowlers after about 3 overs and give it to someone who would instantly take a wicket.

His gut instinct bowling changes were generally on point. His handling of Johnson was a major contributing factor to his 9 odd months as being unplayable. Tactically speaking he was an outstanding captain, and his handling of the Phil Hughes situation has to be admired.

I don't think I've ever seen a captain's whole term being disregarded because he had a gun bowler for 9 months If that's the case then there's never been any good captains.

 

[Daemon]

Misbah>Clarke

 

[Furball]

People are stupid rubbishing Clarke's captaincy, but calling him the best you've seen is equally stupid in the other extreme.

If you can name me a better captain from the last 10 or so years then I'm all ears.

 

[Furball]

BTW, I agree with Jord & OS that Clarke's captaincy is being massively overrated here.

For Furball to go as far as saying he's the best he's ever seen seems utterly bizarre given I don't think Fur is young enough to have missed out on the likes of Michael Vaughan & Stephen Fleming among others.

I'd like to have seen how Clarke would have done skippering Fleming side around the time that Scott Styris (along with Flem) was about our best test batsman going around & Chris Martin our best bowler. To turn it around, give Stephen Fleming even that supposedly relatively weak Aust side Clarke inherited and I think he would have been on seventh heaven with the talent.. Johnson & Rhino's bowling, Clarke & Warner's batting etc, Fleming wouldn't have believed his luck.

See I think Vaughan is massively over-rated as a skipper.

Clarke's genius was in the little things. Australia weren't just an exceptional bowling unit because Clarke stumbled onto a gun unit of bowlers, he's the best I've seen at placing the field to really put pressure on a batting side. It was incredible during the 2013 Ashes how many times a slightly loose ball would be drilled straight to a fielder.

 

[Zinzan]

If you can name me a better captain from the last 10 or so years then I'm all ears.

Already did ^

 

[FaaipDeOiad]

Rating captains with any sort of attempt at objectivity is really difficult because so much of what captains do is by rote and goes pretty much unnoticed. Or if you do notice it, chances are lots of captains would have done similar things. The Fleming/Martyn thing is a great example because everyone remembers that when Fleming captained a ****load of matches for his team, and that's just one tactic. What plans did he have for Darren Lehmann? ****ed if I know.

Then you've got the process of distinguishing a captain's tactical nous from those of his surrounding team, coaching staff etc. Australian cricket fans mostly rate Michael Vaughan highly because he had some highly visible plans in the 2005 Ashes that worked well, did a good job getting under the skin of the Australian players and arguably made them play worse by doing so, and above all his team won the series against a very good, highly rated Australian team. And then the English team got hammered in the return series, without Vaughan, possibly emphasising his importance.

But if you wanted you could easily put that whole series down to the English bowling attack, Australia's attack being past its best aside from Warne, and maybe a bit of Duncan Fletcher. And you'd be fair enough in doing so because all those things were important too.

Similarly most people don't rate Ponting because of a range of things, above all looking a bit lost sometimes when things weren't going well for his side, but he has a ridiculously good record as a captain. You could certainly argue he did some good things if you wanted... etc.

Realistically it's just the stuff you notice and choose to think are important, and personally I watched a lot of Australian cricket with Clarke as captain and think he was very good. Bowling changes, field placements etc seemed to work more often with him than with other captains, simple as that really. Mark Taylor is the only other Australian captain I've felt that way about. But Waugh and Ponting had much better records so again, it depends what you value or even just what you happen to pay attention to and attribute to the captain. I think maybe it's easier to notice the captain's work when they seem to have less to work with and to get the best out of players you didn't rate that highly before.

 

[Top_Cat]

Tubbs was an orthodox captain for a more orthodox time, tbh. I do wonder how he'd go in the era where blokes are able to consistently lift blokes from outside off over fine leg for 6. Strongly suspect his tactic would have been largely 'stack the slips, they'll nick one eventually'.

 

[FaaipDeOiad]

Yeah maybe, I just remember him having that gift for the right man in the right place, the right bowling change at the right time etc that the best captains seem to have. I guess that's the whole point I'm making though, I think it's pretty subjective and based on selective memory and confirmation bias. I thought Taylor was an awesome captain in a middling to good Australian team so when something came off for him I really took note of it. I thought Ponting was the captain of a very good side I always expected to win so when something came off that was just the way things should have gone.

 

[Spark]

Dan summed it up though, he compared Clarke to Ponting. The reality is that you could compare most club cricketers captaincy to Ponting pretty favorably. Apparently Clarke is a tactical genius because he used a strike bowler as a strike bowler, Ponting was too stupid to do so.

You're the one claiming that Clarke had nothing to do with it, though, as if he just went "yeah run up and bowl". He had very clear ideas of how he wanted to use Johnson before the series started, and Johnson executed them to near perfection.

But again, this is 2013/4. Clarke's reputation as a tactician had been well-established before then, particularly in SL (where I don't think we win without it) and at home, where he did what no other captain has been able to do (including Smith) and consistently restrict teams to sub-par scores on Australian pitches. His best captaincy wasn't the hyperattacking stuff—though he did come up with some outlandish ideas at times in that regard—it was being able to flick the switch, say "okay, this isn't working, go to plan B", and totally shut down a side for 10-15 overs, time and time again. Furball's already mentioned it in England, but he did it in Australia too which (as we have seen) is bloody hard.

Sometimes it didn't work, of course. His style of captaincy was high-risk, high-reward, and when it didn't work or when it was unsuited to the conditions (UAE in particular) i.e. when he lost that control of the match situation which his captaincy philosophy dictated, it could looked panicked and way too high-tempo, but it worked a hell of a lot.