Mitchell Marsh vs Ben Stokes thread

[Zinzan]

Very confident he will end up below 35.

Possibly, but huge difference between 35 and the 30 that Captain C was alluding to.

 

[Adders]

Will look forward to reading this thread in 5 years time. Not gonna comment on the Stokes V's Marsh debate as like others have not seen enough of Marsh and it's harsh to judge his batting based on his career to date.

I will say that I'm getting very very excited at the progress Stokes is making. He has come such a long way in the last 12-18 months in both skills and if this improvement trend continues we are going to have a seriously world class cricketer on our hands. Some underrating of his bowling going on in this thread too, he has the tools to end up averaging very low 30's IMO.

 

[Red]

I firmly believe that Marsh should head back to WA for 1-2 Shield seasons and bat at #3 or #4. Prolly won't happen though.

 

[flibbertyjibber]

I will say that I'm getting very very excited at the progress Stokes is making. He has come such a long way in the last 12-18 months in both skills and if this improvement trend continues we are going to have a seriously world class cricketer on our hands. Some underrating of his bowling going on in this thread too, he has the tools to end up averaging very low 30's IMO.

Same, problem he may have is that if Broad and Finn stay fit and firing he might not get as much bowling as he may need to get his average as low as it could get.

To highlight this, Anderson has bowled more in the series than Stokes and played a game less. 1 ball .

 

[Groundking]

Unlike Kallis, Stokes seems to revel in being considered more important. His superior record batting in the top 6 has been talked about a lot - 42.8 at 6 compared to 19 at 7/8/9. But less obvious are his bowling averages at 1st change, 2nd change and 3rd change, which are 25.91, 38.7 and 72.44 respectively.

Maybe we should get him to open the batting and bowling.

Yeah but surely this will end up happening naturally, even if we give Anderson 3 more years (personally I think he'll really struggle in the next year or so to keep coming back from injury, especially as he seems to be picking up more and more of them), by then Stokes will be 27, Broad will be 32, and Finn will be 29, so you imagine Finn and Broad being the opening picks, with Stokes being given the ball first up after these in most cases, as he's likely to be the next most experienced bowler in the team, and I think he'd get the most out of the new ball after 4/5 Finn overs (I struggle to imagine Finn ending up out of the team again, he just so damn destructive with his strike rate).

 

[Stefan9]

From what I have seen Stokes is the better player. But could be that I just haven't seen enough of marsh.

 

[91Jmay]

Wood and Woakes are good reserve pacers to have as well, so he won't ever have to be a workhorse due to injuries.

 

[weldone]

In my opinion they are comparable batsmen (Stokes is probably slightly better in difficult conditions but I am not sure yet) but Marsh is the better bowler.

 

[watson]

If Stokes hasn't already proven himself at Test level then he must be pretty close to it. Marsh is still finding himself, especially as a top 6 batsman.

So this is really a question for 2-3 years time when Marsh has either caught-up or dropped out of the first XI. Can't see Stokes losing his place in the England team for some time.

 

[TheJediBrah]

If Stokes hasn't already proven himself at Test level then he must be pretty close to it. Marsh is still finding himself, especially as a top 6 batsman.

So this is really a question for 2-3 years time when Marsh has either caught-up or dropped out of the first XI. Can't see Stokes losing his place in the England team for some time.

How could anyone think Stokes hasn't proved himself after last test

 

[Black_Warrior]

Yeah but surely this will end up happening naturally, even if we give Anderson 3 more years (personally I think he'll really struggle in the next year or so to keep coming back from injury, especially as he seems to be picking up more and more of them), by then Stokes will be 27, Broad will be 32, and Finn will be 29, so you imagine Finn and Broad being the opening picks, with Stokes being given the ball first up after these in most cases, as he's likely to be the next most experienced bowler in the team, and I think he'd get the most out of the new ball after 4/5 Finn overs (I struggle to imagine Finn ending up out of the team again, he just so damn destructive with his strike rate).

There's the excellent Mark Wood who would be first change

 

[Black_Warrior]

I think it will be tough for Stokes to bring that average down to below 35 or close to 30. He is too good a batsman to be a bowling all rounder and given how much he adds to the team as a batsman, it is likely he will focus a lot more on that. It is extremely difficult to keep getting better and upgrading your skills equally in both formats and usually one is sacrificed. As Kallis went more towards the category of the great batsmen of his time, his bowling did not improve all that much.

This won't really effect England that much because I think they need Stokes the batsman more than Stokes the bowler given their big question marks in their batting line up.

 

[Blanco]

I think it will be tough for Stokes to bring that average down to below 35 or close to 30. He is too good a batsman to be a bowling all rounder and given how much he adds to the team as a batsman, it is likely he will focus a lot more on that. It is extremely difficult to keep getting better and upgrading your skills equally in both formats and usually one is sacrificed. As Kallis went more towards the category of the great batsmen of his time, his bowling did not improve all that much.

This won't really effect England that much because I think they need Stokes the batsman more than Stokes the bowler given their big question marks in their batting line up.

Well he is averaging near 40 with the ball after 22 matches, would be quite some effort if he does bring it down to low 30's. I think bowling wise he adds to England, it's not like Ali is a world beater. So until they get a really good spinner ( fourth bowler) , they will need his bowling.

 

[Howe_zat]

Well he is averaging near 40 with the ball after 22 matches, would be quite some effort if he does bring it down to low 30's. I think bowling wise he adds to England, it's not like Ali is a world beater. So until they get a really good spinner ( fourth bowler) , they will need his bowling.

He has already brought it down quite a bit and it's not exactly unheard of for England seamers who have learned on the job to start delivering results after 20ish tests.

Broad 36 -> 28
Anderson 37 -> 29
Flintoff 47 -> 31

 

[GIMH]

He has already brought it down quite a bit and it's not exactly unheard of for England seamers who have learned on the job to start delivering results after 20ish tests.

Broad 36 -> 28
Anderson 37 -> 29
Flintoff 47 -> 31

Yeah this is why I can't understand Zinzan saying he 'definitely' won't get it under 30. I mean if I was betting on it, I'd be thinking he'd get to around Freddie's figures with the ball, but wouldn't be surprised if he went lower

 

[Black_Warrior]

Yeah this is why I can't understand Zinzan saying he 'definitely' won't get it under 30. I mean if I was betting on it, I'd be thinking he'd get to around Freddie's figures with the ball, but wouldn't be surprised if he went lower

I think he is certainly good enough to get it lower, especially if he if asked to do more and more bowling as specialist 4th bowler..but as I said earlier, if he is also working on getting his batting up there, it might not happen the way it happened for Broad and Anderson. They didn't have to worry about batting at 6 and scoring hundreds.

Flintoff - I feel Stokes is a better batsman.

 

[vcs]

Was really impressed with Marsh's bowling in the Ashes and subsequent ODIs. But he needs to up his game quite a bit as a batsman, because he hasn't shown much in that department yet.

 

[flibbertyjibber]

Yeah this is why I can't understand Zinzan saying he 'definitely' won't get it under 30. I mean if I was betting on it, I'd be thinking he'd get to around Freddie's figures with the ball, but wouldn't be surprised if he went lower

I think he is certainly good enough to get it lower, especially if he if asked to do more and more bowling as specialist 4th bowler..but as I said earlier, if he is also working on getting his batting up there, it might not happen the way it happened for Broad and Anderson. They didn't have to worry about batting at 6 and scoring hundreds.

Flintoff - I feel Stokes is a better batsman.

I can't see Stokes getting his bowling to the Flintoff level, he became very very good for a couple of years (much better than his career figures showed) but as a bat Stokes can be far closer to Botham in terms of hundreds he scores than Flintoff. I think most of us would say a 37 batting average and anything below 35 with the ball over 75+ tests would be brilliant for him and the side. Can he do that, has the talent I think but the feast and famine he seems to have may stop it.

 

[91Jmay]

I think Stokes might get his bat average above 40, and around 35 with the ball. Key will be the amount of devastating match winning innings/spells + being an absolute gun fielder.

 

[cnerd123]

Stokes is definitely a better bowler than what a 35 average would suggest based off what I've seen.