***Official*** Sri Lanka in New Zealand 2015

[Dan]

What do Boult's hypothetical post-injury ODI performances have to do with Southee's actual post 7-fer numbers I posted above? They're utterly diabolical in anyone's language.

Nothing, but suggesting that you can leave Southee out because Boult "has been exceptional" ignores the reality that Boult hasn't been bowling that well as of late, and his exceptional ODI stuff all came back before he got injured.

I was responding to Albi's point that Henry/Boult being so good means you can drop Southee out of the first XI. If that first point doesn't hold, it casts doubt on his second.

There's also a 'form is temporary, class is permanent' argument to be had there, I suppose.

 

[Zinzan]

Milne and Bracewell? You're drunk.

If either Milne or Bracewell averaged 74 with an ER of 6.78 in their last 11 or so games I certainly wouldn't be mentioning them.

If you can't see those numbers are horrendous (not across 2-3 games either, but 11), then I'm questioning your sobriety.

 

[Dan]

Southee-Boult-Henry-Milne is my preferred set of four quicks at present. With acknowledgement that Southee hasn't been that great for a while now, and there are still questions over Boult's current form.

 

[Zinzan]

Nothing, but suggesting that you can leave Southee out because Boult "has been exceptional" ignores the reality that Boult hasn't been bowling that well as of late, and his exceptional ODI stuff all came back before he got injured..

I wasn't arguing that Boult's been exceptional by any means, my argument was Southee's been terrible.

There's also a 'form is temporary, class is permanent' argument to be had there, I suppose.

What? When has Southee ever been 'class' in ODIs?, unless you use that term extremely generously. His overall ODI career record is 'average' at best.

 

[Athlai]

If either Milne or Bracewell averaged 74 with an ER of 6.78 in their last 11 or so games I certainly wouldn't be mentioning them.

If you can't see those numbers are horrendous (not across 2-3 games either, but 11), then I'm questioning your sobriety.

Cherry picking is cherry picking and the numbers mean bugger all without context. Southee gets caned at the death, a lot of those games were on flat pitches on small grounds, hes also consistently been our best ODI bowler for years. Sure Boult pushed ahead of him in 2014/15 but has also gone off the boil due to injury.

To say Milne or Bracewell is a better ODI bowler than Southee because of a few games is just the most knee jerky knee jerk reaction. It's like imagining McClenenenen with all his 4fers is a better bowler than Southee. Sometimes stats just don't tell the whole story.

Henry is MAYBE a better ODI bowler than Southee at the moment. It's honestly too soon to tell. Bracewell and Milne don't even deserve to be in the conversation.

 

[Zinzan]

Cherry picking is cherry picking and the numbers mean bugger all without context. Southee gets caned at the death, a lot of those games were on flat pitches on small grounds, hes also consistently been our best ODI bowler for years. Sure Boult pushed ahead of him in 2014/15 but has also gone off the boil due to injury.

To say Milne or Bracewell is a better ODI bowler than Southee because of a few games is just the most knee jerky knee jerk reaction. It's like imagining McClenenenen with all his 4fers is a better bowler than Southee. Sometimes stats just don't tell the whole story.

Henry is MAYBE a better ODI bowler than Southee at the moment. It's honestly too soon to tell. Bracewell and Milne don't even deserve to be in the conversation.

There's so many holes in this argument that I'll need to respond fully after work. You're deluded if you really think this.

Even in the pre-Boult era, the likes of Mills & Oram of yesteryear were immeasurably better ODI bowlers than Southee.

It's astonishing how overrated Southee is by some on here, especially as an ODI bowler. If there was a period when he was our best, it would have coincided with us having an extremely weak pace attack at that moment in time.

 

[Athlai]

There's so many holes in this argument that I'll need to respond fully after work. You're deluded if you really think this.

Even in the pre-Boult era, the likes of Mills & Oram of yesteryear were immeasurably better ODI bowlers than Southee.

It's astonishing how overrated Southee is by some on here, especially as an ODI bowler. If there was a period when he was our best, it would have coincided with us having an extremely weak pace attack at that moment in time.

Post 2011, Southee > Mills

 

[wellAlbidarned]

Boult has been terrible. A total spud. It's depressing.

Boult has been terrible because he's rebuilding from an injury. Southee has been terrible because he's just not that good in the format.

 

[Athlai]

Boult has been terrible because he's rebuilding from an injury. Southee has been terrible because he's just not that good in the format.

Talking about Boult in all formats. I love Boult and I think he has proven that when fully fit, in his 2014/15 form, he is our best bowler. But he's injured, and a spud.

So a fit Southee is our best bowler.

Not Adam Larsen or Doug Bracespudwell.

 

[Zinzan]

Post 2011, Southee > Mills

That's your best retort? Well even that's wrong sadly. Here's the numbers using your criteria post Jan 2011... and Mills has a slightly better average and considerably better ER.

Bowling records | One-Day Internationals | Cricinfo Statsguru | ESPN Cricinfo

 

[NZTailender]

Boult has just looked awful lately

Brisbane - spud
Perth - spud
Adelaide - bowled well but still looked a little short on rhythm, pink ball shenanigans?!??!?!?!
Dunedin - probably our worst, 50% spud
Hamilton - probably our worst, 50% spud
Da Mount - decent enough but he doesn't look like Boult

Give us back Boult circa 2014/15

Haha forgot about the SL Tests, which probably backs your argument because I mostly remember Wagner and Southee getting wickets.

 

[wellAlbidarned]

Talking about Boult in all formats. I love Boult and I think he has proven that when fully fit, in his 2014/15 form, he is our best bowler. But he's injured, and a spud.

So a fit Southee is our best bowler.

Not Adam Larsen or Doug Bracespudwell.

saying it over and over doesn't make it true

 

[Zinzan]

So a fit Southee is our best bowler.

Only according to the Southee fanboys if we're talking ODIs. Please actually look at the numbers, they do matter.

 

[Athlai]

That's your best retort? Well even that's wrong sadly. Here's the numbers using your criteria post Jan 2011... and Mills has a slightly better average and considerably better ER.

Bowling records | One-Day Internationals | Cricinfo Statsguru | ESPN Cricinfo

So? McClenenen has a great average too, Mills was well established at that stage as being a total liability at the death and we ended up giving him at most 2 overs after the 35th and Southee was trusted with 4-6 consistently. Southee was definitely the leader of our attack in this period and our best bowler. He had utility unlike the other options, he was the bowler we relied on to impact the match when it was running away from us. To bowl a cheap spell at the top, to come in for that breakthrough wicket in the middle overs, to attempt to halt the flow at the death.

Haters be hatin' if they don't think he was our best in that period. Mills got SO much ****. I remember because I defended that shunt too.

No one is saying Southee was GREAT circa 2011, but he was decent and sometimes even quite good. It was a pretty bleak time for our ODI bowling and outside of 2014/2015 Henry/Boult and Mills with the new ball, he was the only bright spot.

I think we can all agree McClenenen is h4x.

 

[Zinzan]

So? McClenenen has a great average too, Mills was well established at that stage as being a total liability at the death and we ended up giving him at most 2 overs after the 35th and Southee was trusted with 4-6 consistently. Southee was definitely the leader of our attack in this period and our best bowler. He had utility unlike the other options, he was the bowler we relied on to impact the match when it was running away from us. To bowl a cheap spell at the top, to come in for that breakthrough wicket in the middle overs, to attempt to halt the flow at the death.

Haters be hatin' if they don't think he was our best in that period. Mills got SO much ****. I remember because I defended that shunt too.

No one is saying Southee was GREAT circa 2011, but he was decent and sometimes even quite good. It was a pretty bleak time for our ODI bowling and outside of 2014/2015 Henry/Boult and Mills with the new ball, he was the only bright spot.

I think we can all agree McClenenen is h4x.

I don't know what McClenaghan has to do with the argument because his ER has been utter mud over that period, whereas Mills' was actually impressive. So apples v spuds there.

It also supports my comment that if there was a period of time when Southee was our first cab of the rank (and perhaps there was a small window there) it would have coincided with us having a weak attack, and clearly Post Mills/Oram and prior to Boult, Henry Milne, we were weak on the pace bowling front.

Even though we do all agree about McPienaghan, to be fair on him there was a period in his first 9 months or so that he was actually our 'best' performer, it's just easy to forget since then he's been all over the shop in the last 18 months. Remember when he first burst on to the scene in that series we won in SA in 2013? He wasn't chucking pies then.

The haters hating comment is a tad childish and is effectively a non-argument as I honestly feel I'm being more objective than you are in my recent assessment of Southee.

 

[Skyliner]

Southee has a lot of seniority and longevity in the Black Caps set up. He gets a lot of 'leader of the attack' kudos heaped on him by the TV commentators. He is also seen as one half of the T & T double act, meaning that when Boult performs well some of the reflected glory goes to Southee. (Not to other bowlers). Add in the inate conservatism of NZ cricket, and it all adds up to Southee being immune to criticism and scrutiny.
He's put in one blindingly good ODI performance in recent memory, and a plethora of mediocre to poor performances. But when it comes to the crunch he would always be selected ahead of Henry.

 

[hendrix]

Zinzan is probably right that Southee's been a bit off in ODIs for a wee while now.

I'm just struggling to care about these meaningless ODIs.

 

[Immenso]

I momentarily groaned when I thought both Boult and Southee were going to play the last ODI. Then checked myself that it's just a JAMODI. Took the kids to a farm park instead.

I'd select Nuttal for rotation in the Pak jamodi series. Get him in while he's hot. Give him a taste and add him to The Depth.

Boult and Southee to play domestics, take it easy, work towards Aussie tests.

 

[_Ed_]

Will Mathieson feature again, or was he just a bizarre one-off?

 

[Zinzan]

Zinzan is probably right that Southee's been a bit off in ODIs for a wee while now and is generally right about everything except that Latham wasn't ready for ODIs.

Fixed, Hendrix stylez..