Mohammed Amir cleared to return with immediate effect

[G.I.Joe]

Where are you getting the indication that Amir displays no remorse? Everything I've seen or heard from him since his jail stint displays nothing but remorse. You are creating false offenses here. Also, those old fuddy duddies, one of whom now runs the dressing room, were much older and in certain cases the Captains of their team, when they committed those offenses. I don't see how one can be morally outraged against Amir without feeling aggrieved against them.

The facade of remorse.

"The Board has designed a reintegration and rehabilitation process for the three before it considers allowing them back into mainstream cricket."But the initial reports about the behaviour of particularly Amir and Asif is not very good and the PCB is concerned," the source said.
He said the PCB had received some negative comments about the behaviour of Amir in domestic matches.
"The board is concerned since its first priority is to be sure the three are repentant and have learnt from their bans and this does not appear to be the case so far," the source said.
"Amir and Asif in particular don't seem to realise the seriousness of the matter and have shown lot of attitude since their bans expired," the source confirmed."

Pakistan Players Resist Comeback of Tainted Mohammad Amir - Cricket News

 

[G.I.Joe]

I didnt say past performances aren't indicative of future performances. I said having hard evidence of someone having committed a crime in the past (that they have already been punished for too) cannot be used as hard evidence of any future wrongdoing. They may suspect him but thats all. They cannot, unequivocally say that he will fix again.


Well I have considered the possibility of B happening, so not going to disagree there, but based on the information we have that just remains a theory. Speculation. We cannot certainly say that is what is happening.

I also understand their thought processes. I've said this before, I can see why they won't want to play alongside him. My point is that it is still unprofessional to walk out. Part of the job of being an international team-sports athlete is learning how to get along and win alongside people you may not like and may not trust. If players keep walking out on guys they have a bad feeling about without any concrete evidence or reasons, we would barely be able to put together functioning playing XIs.

Amir has done his time. The ICC and PCB have cleared him as clean. He is bowling well. There has been absolutely no evidence to suggest that Amir is still fixing or likely to fix again. If Hafeez and Azhar still feel uneasy, and I can understand why, they can walk out. But they should suffer the consequences of that decision instead of being lauded for it.

You're just re-iterating your view on what constitutes professionalism here. A grin and bear it no matter what attitude is not professionalism. Toeing the company line at all times is not professionalism. Being pragmatic (that which you mistakenly refer to as a moral decision) in their assessment of policy that could negatively affect the team is what's truly professional.

That's even before we get to the point about the absolute irrelevance of this narrow and straitjacketed version of professionalism in the face of pragmatism. Were Andy Flower and Henry Olonga being professional in their opposition to Zimbabwean policy? Absolutely not. You might even say they were immature and that there is no way they were justified in their actions. They should have been all "professional" and continued to play cricket for their team.

Hafeez and Azhar aren't fighting as huge a battle as the Zimbabweans did, but they're still doing the right thing here and do not deserve this myopic dismissal of their protest.

 

[G.I.Joe]

i didnt say past performances aren't indicative of future performances. I said having hard evidence of someone having committed a crime in the past (that they have already been punished for too) cannot be used as hard evidence of any future wrongdoing. They may suspect him but thats all. They cannot, unequivocally say that he will fix again.

c) a lack of remorse might not be a guarantor of future fixes, but it certainly screws up the team atmosphere in such a malicious way that you'd understand their thought processes if you were part of a team sport (which surprises me exceedingly because afaik, you do play cricket).

 

[Bahnz]

Mohammad Amir apologises to teammates

 

[mr_mister]

Hafeez and Azhar aren't fighting as huge a battle as the Zimbabweans did

only sensible thing said in that post

 

[G.I.Joe]

Insightful as always, mr_mister.

 

[Jono]

Umar Akmal ?unhappy? over Amir?s return - Daily Pakistan Global

Heh

 

[Fusion]

The facade of remorse.

"The Board has designed a reintegration and rehabilitation process for the three before it considers allowing them back into mainstream cricket."But the initial reports about the behaviour of particularly Amir and Asif is not very good and the PCB is concerned," the source said.
He said the PCB had received some negative comments about the behaviour of Amir in domestic matches.
"The board is concerned since its first priority is to be sure the three are repentant and have learnt from their bans and this does not appear to be the case so far," the source said.
"Amir and Asif in particular don't seem to realise the seriousness of the matter and have shown lot of attitude since their bans expired," the source confirmed."

Pakistan Players Resist Comeback of Tainted Mohammad Amir - Cricket News

Ah the ever popular "unnamed source". You'll excuse me if I don't consider that official proof that he's not remorseful. All any of us can go by is what he's said and done since his jail stint, which has all been on the up and up in terms of showing remorse and integrating back to the team as per the rules. You keep making the statement that Azhar and Hafeez might know that he hasn't repented and that he might go back to his old habits. Have they actual said that? As far as I know, they have only objected to playing with him because he committed a crime in the past, not that they think he'll do it again.

 

[AndyZaltzHair]

Umar Akmal ?unhappy? over Amir?s return - Daily Pakistan Global

Heh

Lol the same Umar Akmal had no problems playing alongside Amir in the same team in bpl and posting selfies

 

[G.I.Joe]

Ah the ever popular "unnamed source". You'll excuse me if I don't consider that official proof that he's not remorseful. All any of us can go by is what he's said and done since his jail stint, which has all been on the up and up in terms of showing remorse and integrating back to the team as per the rules. You keep making the statement that Azhar and Hafeez might know that he hasn't repented and that he might go back to his old habits. Have they actual said that? As far as I know, they have only objected to playing with him because he committed a crime in the past, not that they think he'll do it again.

Of course they're unnamed sources. One would have to be an idiot to attach their names to a leak of this nature. But of course, you'd rather wave them away and be taken in by the tutored utterances of the scumbag who saw the error of his ways (a tear rolls down my cheek at this point) only after being confronted with irrefutable proof, and subscribe to the theory that all reports of his recalcitrance and incorrigibility are faked and that the behaviour of his team-mates is a huge conspiracy against Pakistan, as Amir's mum put it so eloquently. Poor Amir, the entire world's out to get him

 

[cnerd123]

You're just re-iterating your view on what constitutes professionalism here. A grin and bear it no matter what attitude is not professionalism. Toeing the company line at all times is not professionalism. Being pragmatic (that which you mistakenly refer to as a moral decision) in their assessment of policy that could negatively affect the team is what's truly professional.

I think I see where you are coming from now. You see Azhar and Hafeez's walk out as a protest against the entire concept of a fixer returning to professional cricket.

Undortunately, I sill disagree with you. Amir's sentence was handed out 5 years ago. It was bleedingly obvious to everyone following that once those five years were done that Amir would be back in the side. For the entire duration of his ban he kept bowling and talking about wanting to return.

If Hafeez and Azhar genuinely wanted to stage a protest against the return of a fixer to international cricket, they should have done so the second it was decided that Amir wouldn't be serving a life ban. They should have walked off then and made it clear they wouldn't play again until the door was slammed shut on Amir completely.

But they didn't. And I cant speak for them, but you seem to feel that fixers shouldnt return unless they profusely apologise and make nice. Thats not being pragmatic at all. You arent against the entire concept of fixers returning to cricket, because if you were you wouldnt care about how much remorse Amir did or did not show. You are simply saying "I'll forgive you only if you stop being a **** about it."

Thats unprofessional IMO. I could forgive a walkout made in protest to the wide idea of giving fixers a second chance, and I would agree with you about such behaviour being done to address policies that could negatively affect the side, but if that was genuinely Azhar and Hafeez's motivations were then why did they wait 5 years till they did something about it? Did they really think Amir would never be picked again despite all the signs over the last 5 years indicating otherwise? Were they that naive? And why would Amir being a **** have anything to do with this decision if they had the bigger picture in mind? Would they have abandoned this stand of their's if Amir went around apologising and making nice?

 

[Fusion]

Of course they're unnamed sources. One would have to be an idiot to attach their names to a leak of this nature. But of course, you'd rather wave them away and be taken in by the tutored utterances of the scumbag who saw the error of his ways (a tear rolls down my cheek at this point) only after being confronted with irrefutable proof, and subscribe to the theory that all reports of his recalcitrance and incorrigibility are faked and that the behaviour of his team-mates is a huge conspiracy against Pakistan, as Amir's mum put it so eloquently. Poor Amir, the entire world's out to get him

So in summary, you just made up the whole part about Hafeez/Azhar being put off that Amir is not remorseful and that they suspect he'll do it again? Thanks for clearing that up.

 

[cnerd123]

So Azhar and Hafeez have a moral objection about playing with Amir, a spot-fixer. Good for them. How about they show a bit of consistency with their outrage though? Why are they ok playing under Waqar Younis, who was one of the players named by the Qayyum report as having delved into match-fixing? Have they refused to be in the same room as Wasim Akram, Inzi, and Mushy (all of whom were also named in the Qayyum report)? If not, then **** their selective moral outrage. If they found a way to forgive and forget with those players, then they can do the same with Amir.

Also, those old fuddy duddies, one of whom now runs the dressing room, were much older and in certain cases the Captains of their team, when they committed those offenses. I don't see how one can be morally outraged against Amir without feeling aggrieved against them.

Yea I think this a very good point too. This suggests that Hafeez and Azhar's objections stem from them not liking Amir as a person, rather than having issues with former fixers getting a second chance.

 

[G.I.Joe]

I think I see where you are coming from now. You see Azhar and Hafeez's walk out as a protest against the entire concept of a fixer returning to professional cricket.

Undortunately, I sill disagree with you. Amir's sentence was handed out 5 years ago. It was bleedingly obvious to everyone following that once those five years were done that Amir would be back in the side. For the entire duration of his ban he kept bowling and talking about wanting to return.

If Hafeez and Azhar genuinely wanted to stage a protest against the return of a fixer to international cricket, they should have done so the second it was decided that Amir wouldn't be serving a life ban. They should have walked off then and made it clear they wouldn't play again until the door was slammed shut on Amir completely.

But they didn't. And I cant speak for them, but you seem to feel that fixers shouldnt return unless they profusely apologise and make nice. Thats not being pragmatic at all. You arent against the entire concept of fixers returning to cricket, because if you were you wouldnt care about how much remorse Amir did or did not show. You are simply saying "I'll forgive you only if you stop being a **** about it."

Thats unprofessional IMO. I could forgive a walkout made in protest to the wide idea of giving fixers a second chance, and I would agree with you about such behaviour being done to address policies that could negatively affect the side, but if that was genuinely Azhar and Hafeez's motivations were then why did they wait 5 years till they did something about it? Did they really think Amir would never be picked again despite all the signs over the last 5 years indicating otherwise? Were they that naive? And why would Amir being a **** have anything to do with this decision if they had the bigger picture in mind? Would they have abandoned this stand of their's if Amir went around apologising and making nice?

Why are you so stuck on the time period of the protests? If I were a player that isn't guaranteed to be in the team 5 years from now on, why would would I even open my mouth until the bridge presents for the crossing? Maybe they thought he'd reform, but certain events and interactions over the past few months have led them to understand that he's still unremorseful scum. You're hell bent on wanting them to have formed their opinions 5 years ago, when reason suggests that a different and perhaps better approach would be to watch the culprit rehabilitate over the period of his suspension and judge him on his progress (or lack of).

The time argument is so bizarre. It's like pooh poohing the cricketing world for their stance on Apartheid just because it came 50 years (or whatever) too late.

Personally, I'm a one strike and you're out guy wrt fixers. If a bank employee gets caught dipping his hand into the till, he serves his time and doesn't get his banking job back, ever. He gets his second chance elsewhere. Amir can have all the second chances he wants - just not back on the cricket field. He could go dig roads or plough a field for the rest of his life for all I care. Unfortunately cricketing bodies do not share that view and if they're bringing back players, the least that should be expected is acceptance of guilt, genuine remorse and rehabilitation. Yes, it's entirely subjective and prone to manipulation and deceit by the culprit, which is probably why we've ended up with this Amir situation.

I still can't figure put why you insist on shoehorning in the professionalism angle when it has absolutely nothing to do with things here.

 

[G.I.Joe]

Yea I think this a very good point too. This suggests that Hafeez and Azhar's objections stem from them not liking Amir as a person, rather than having issues with former fixers getting a second chance.

So does that not lend credence to the theory that they're pissed off at Amir because they've observed his "arrogance" and utter lack of repentance of late?

 

[G.I.Joe]

So in summary, you just made up the whole part about Hafeez/Azhar being put off that Amir is not remorseful and that they suspect he'll do it again? Thanks for clearing that up.

It's an entirely reasonable conclusion to draw from the facts, you dolt.

 

[AndyZaltzHair]

Recent development,

Both Azhar Ali and Mohammad Hafeez have informed PCB they will tour New Zealand even if Mohammad Amir is selected #Cricket

 

[Fusion]

So does that not lend credence to the theory that they're pissed off at Amir because they've observed his "arrogance" and utter lack of repentance of late?

Sure, let's continue to make crap up and not let facts get in our way.

 

[kiwiviktor81]

How real is the chance that Mohammed Amir will visit NZ after Sri Lanka? I'm really keen to see what all the fuss is about.

 

[cnerd123]

Why are you so stuck on the time period of the protests? If I were a player that isn't guaranteed to be in the team 5 years from now on, why would would I even open my mouth until the bridge presents for the crossing? Maybe they thought he'd reform, but certain events and interactions over the past few months have led them to understand that he's still unremorseful scum. You're hell bent on wanting them to have formed their opinions 5 years ago, when reason suggests that a different and perhaps better approach would be to watch the culprit rehabilitate over the period of his suspension and judge him on his progress (or lack of).

---

I still can't figure put why you insist on shoehorning in the professionalism angle when it has absolutely nothing to do with things here.

So basically you're saying that because Amir is a ****, he shouldn't be allowed back in the side?

If that's not what you're saying, then I'm afraid I've lost you. You're saying Hafeez and Azhar should only be comfortable playing alongside a fixer if he has adequately apologised and shown remorse. This is such a troublesome line of reasoning. How do you measure how much remorse Amir has shown, and how do you define what an adequate amount of remorse is? How do you define 'rehabilitation' in terms of a former fixer? Where is the line drawn? What are the standards he should be meeting? Can you not see how vague and unclear this is?

Or are you saying this decision should be completely be out of the hands of the PCB, and that Amir should only be re-selected when everyone in the squad is comfortable with him? If so, is that how all cricket selections should work from now on too? Only picking player who get along nicely with each other, and ignoring merit?

I can't see what angle you are coming from here. How are you lauding Hafeez and Azhar's walk out? How is this a good act from them?

- It's not because they are taking a principled stand against fixers ever returning to the game, otherwise you wouldn't care about how much remorse Amir shows.

- It's not because Amir has been picked despite solid evidence that he will fix again, because there is no such evidence.

- It's not because you support players refusing to play against players they don't like - because lets face it, that is absolutely ridiculous

Really you just seem to be pro-walkout because you are anti-Amir. "Amir is a fixer, he's been a **** since coming back, I don't like his face and I'm glad Hafeez and Azhar agree with me". This is such bull****. It is incredibly unprofessional -there is that word again- for international cricketers to refuse to play alongside someone simply because they do not like or do not trust them. This isn't pragmatism. This is absolutely making a judgement on an another person and refusing to work with them with no concrete reason whatsoever.