***Official*** Sri Lanka in New Zealand 2015

[Moss]

Haven't been following the domestic scene as closely as I should, but judging by the squads that have been picked in the last year it looks like Astle is nowhere in the frame and Sodhi is purely a one-day option at this point. Both offer some batting ability, if not at Mark Craig's level. Santner would be fine for now if he were a containing option, but doesn't seem like it.

I get the feeling they desperately want to play Wagner but won't because of the continuity-first policy (and because Bracewell did enough in Aus).

 

[Hurricane]

Dropping your spinner is almost never actually a good idea. Agree completely with McCullum's point.

Pick the best spinner in NZ.

Welcome to 2009 - sponsored by Howe.

Just kidding.

BAck in those days on this message board there was competition to be the first person in the thread to say "pick your best three bowlers and spinner period"
"but what if the 3rd seamer and spinner are crap".
"Pick them anyway because the other options are worse".
"Despite the other options being able to field or bat?"
"Yes they will bowl darts.".

Yeah I don't see the point in picking Craig if he is not test standard, regardless of whether he is the best spinner in the country or not.

It is clear he will be playing though so good luck to him and sucks to be you Wagner.

 

[Athlai]

Dropping your spinner is almost never actually a good idea. Agree completely with McCullum's point.

Pick the best spinner in NZ.

He bats at 3 IIRC

 

[cnerd123]

Dropping your spinner is almost never actually a good idea. Agree completely with McCullum's point.

Pick the best spinner in NZ.

Surely you shouldn't play a spinner for the sake of paying a spinner? At a certain point the gap between the best spinner availabe and the 4th best bowler is so vast it justifies picking the 4th fast bowler despite the associated problems.

Not saying this is the case with Craig/Wagner, just putting it out there.

 

[wellAlbidarned]

He bats at 3 IIRC

When did jeets get the promotion?

 

[Bahnz]

Welcome to 2009 - sponsored by Howe.

Just kidding.

BAck in those days on this message board there was competition to be the first person in the thread to say "pick your best three bowlers and spinner period"
"but what if the 3rd seamer and spinner are crap".
"Pick them anyway because the other options are worse".
"Despite the other options being able to field or bat?"
"Yes they will bowl darts.".

Yeah I don't see the point in picking Craig if he is not test standard, regardless of whether he is the best spinner in the country or not.

It is clear he will be playing though so good luck to him and sucks to be you Wagner.

Would we have won at Headingley earlier this year without Craig in the XI? Or against WI in 2014? Maybe, but in those types of conditions having a spinner on hand is vital. Yeah Craig's been bowling bilge lately, but McCullum's point about picking a team to compete over the course of 5 days is a cogent one. Even a rubbish spinner can take a bag if the conditions are favourable enough.

 

[Hurricane]

Would we have won at Headingley earlier this year without Craig in the XI? Or against WI in 2014? Maybe, but in those types of conditions having a spinner on hand is vital. Yeah Craig's been bowling bilge lately, but McCullum's point about picking a team to compete over the course of 5 days is a cogent one. Even a rubbish spinner can take a bag if the conditions are favourable enough.

Not sure I agree. If you are rubbish you are at best an inconsistent threat in helpful conditions.

Was he this inaccurate when he took those hauls? Has he deteriorated? That is my working assumption.

 

[Howe_zat]

Surely you shouldn't play a spinner for the sake of paying a spinner? At a certain point the gap between the best spinner availabe and the 4th best bowler is so vast it justifies picking the 4th fast bowler despite the associated problems.

Not saying this is the case with Craig/Wagner, just putting it out there.

The problem isn't that people think no spinner is a good idea. People very rarely think that, they say that random batting allrounders are as good at bowling as the players who have spent their whole professional career on spin bowling. It's bollocks.

There are occasions when a spin-free attack might pay off but that's entirely forced by conditions, and usually only when your opening seamers take heaps of wickets anyway.

More than bad tactics though I think it's just dire. I give a **** about spin bowling.

 

[wellAlbidarned]

The problem isn't that people think no spinner is a good idea. People very rarely think that, they say that random batting allrounders are as good at bowling as the players who have spent their whole professional career on spin bowling. It's bollocks.

.

The funny thing is Santner has actually been bowling spin for longer than Craig

 

[cnerd123]

Yea Craig's professional spin bowling career is like...4 years long. In general Howe is right, but that doesn't apply here.

Also disagree with Bahnz and agree with Cane wrt rubbish spinners in helpful conditions.

 

[wellAlbidarned]

Not sure I agree. If you are rubbish you are at best an inconsistent threat in helpful conditions.

Was he this inaccurate when he took those hauls? Has he deteriorated? That is my working assumption.

nah even a relatively poor bowler can suddenly summon up an immaculate line and length when they get their tail up from seeing a few balls ripping past the edge

 

[Moss]

The problem isn't that people think no spinner is a good idea. People very rarely think that, they say that random batting allrounders are as good at bowling as the players who have spent their whole professional career on spin bowling. It's bollocks.

There are occasions when a spin-free attack might pay off but that's entirely forced by conditions, and usually only when your opening seamers take heaps of wickets anyway.

More than bad tactics though I think it's just dire. I give a **** about spin bowling.

I agree on principle.

In Craig's case, the problem often has been how and when McCullum chooses to use him. As a skipper you should be prepared to take him off immediately if it's not working out, and it's almost as if he gets many more overs (which result in more run-leakage) in the name of confidence-building. TBF we probably wouldn't be complaining so much if his batting had held up in Aus.

 

[kiwiviktor81]

Do we really need an economical, holding spinner if we have Wagner in the team? I don't think so.

 

[Athlai]

The problem isn't that people think no spinner is a good idea. People very rarely think that, they say that random batting allrounders are as good at bowling as the players who have spent their whole professional career on spin bowling. It's bollocks.

There are occasions when a spin-free attack might pay off but that's entirely forced by conditions, and usually only when your opening seamers take heaps of wickets anyway.

More than bad tactics though I think it's just dire. I give a **** about spin bowling.

This is New Zealand. If Kane couldn't bat he'd legitimately be one of our best spinners.

 

[wellAlbidarned]

I agree on principle.

In Craig's case, the problem often has been how and when McCullum chooses to use him. As a skipper you should be prepared to take him off immediately if it's not working out, and it's almost as if he gets many more overs (which result in more run-leakage) in the name of confidence-building. TBF we probably wouldn't be complaining so much if his batting had held up in Aus.

Nah if you do pick a spinner you have to back them for decent spells. Even good spinners can get slapped about in the first few overs and you have to give them a chance to settle.

 

[Hurricane]

I agree on principle.

In Craig's case, the problem often has been how and when McCullum chooses to use him. As a skipper you should be prepared to take him off immediately if it's not working out, and it's almost as if he gets many more overs (which result in more run-leakage) in the name of confidence-building. TBF we probably wouldn't be complaining so much if his batting had held up in Aus.

This is my number one beef with him. If he can be a bowling all rounder then I am happy to have patience with his hot and cold bowling. He merrily threw his wicket away in most cases however.

 

[wellAlbidarned]

This is New Zealand. If Kane couldn't bat he'd legitimately be one of our best spinners.

think this line was only true for kane 1.0

 

[Fuller Pilch]

Would we have won at Headingley earlier this year without Craig in the XI? Or against WI in 2014? Maybe, but in those types of conditions having a spinner on hand is vital. Yeah Craig's been bowling bilge lately, but McCullum's point about picking a team to compete over the course of 5 days is a cogent one. Even a rubbish spinner can take a bag if the conditions are favourable enough.

Would we have lost at Lords and Adelaide without him?

Some Mark Craig stats:

In wins (6 tests) - he averages 120 with the bat and has taken 33 wickets at 26.7
All-round records | Test matches | Cricinfo Statsguru | ESPN Cricinfo

In draws (2 tests) - he averages 30.66 with the bat and has taken 6 wickets at 64.5
All-round records | Test matches | Cricinfo Statsguru | ESPN Cricinfo

In losses (5 tests) - he averages 20 with the bat and has taken 7 wickets at 109
All-round records | Test matches | Cricinfo Statsguru | ESPN Cricinfo


NZ just have to win more often and he's gonna be better than Sobers.

 

[Moss]

Nah if you do pick a spinner you have to back them for decent spells. Even good spinners can get slapped about in the first few overs and you have to give them a chance to settle.

Fair enough. I was thinking more about how he was used in Adelaide. In match situations and pitches like those at the Gabba and WACA, no arguments there.

 

[Flem274*]

I think Mark Craig is a very talented spin bowler tbh. He has everything going for him except one big one - accuracy.

He's a baby in spin bowling years, coming to it late, so even though he's in his late 20s he's got the experience of a 21 year old.

Anyway, I'd go with Santner and four quicks for this series because it suits the team balance for our home conditions in the absence of Anderson and Neesham.

I would only dump Craig for either the above full time if Santner proves the best allrounder by enough (or really improves with the ball), or for Todd Astle because he is the only spinner to take wickets in New Zealand domestic cricket, something not even County destroyer Jeetan Patel can do. Johnston is a very dark horse. Would love to see him on A tours or playing for an overseas FC side.