Greatest keeper batsman - Gilchrist or Sangakkara?

[Pratters]

Pretty sure we are on the topic of Seinfeld now.

 

[aussie]

Barry Richards also couldn't play for South Africa except handful of games even though he wanted to. Don't see why Dolly should be inelligible. He played for England only at the age of 35. All his prime cricketing career he would have loved to represent South Africa.

I kind of have to agree with you here, and like your reasoning. After all, the stats nerds normally hover around a sample size of 20 to say that one's test record is based on a useful sample. So what is the difference between a sample of 4 test and 0? By my reckoning, both numbers are open to being highly misleading as to the batsmen's worth. This being the case, people are likely, and do, in the case of Richards, to base their case on first class record. As an all rounder, it seems Basil might have a good case here, though I think in his case Kallis or Pollock would take his spot depending on what type of all rounder Basil was classified as.

Basil did play for and captain South Africa (referred to as 'South Africa Non-Europeans' on cricketarchive) which was as far as he was allowed to progress and played against the likes of Kenya etc. If Richards can get into an all-time team for SA I'd definitely consider Basil too. I vaguely remember reading somewhere his actual birthdate is a couple of years older than that listed - possibly 1929??- which makes his later career even more remarkable.

Whoa Ha, I don't know where to start with this. But sticking to Pratters 3 post argument suggestion I will make this last post and retire from the Basil talk pending replies here.

Richards like Procter (possibly also Rice, Van Der Bijl, Le Roux in some aspects) is picked in SA ATXI universaly because those who saw them play believed they were so good/best ever SA produced in those roles - that them not getting to play more tests due to apartheid should not deter them for being selected in SA ATXI. Most go along with the theory that had SA not been banned with aparthied/or rather aparthied had ended quicker, they would have had great actual test careers similar to their performances in county cricket, currie cup, Sheffield sheild, rebel tours and WSC.

However if one of them had succumbed to frustration and decided to do like Tony Greig, Allan Lamb at the time and play for England & produced similar actual test performances they would become ENG ATXI material & no way one can pick them for SA ATXI. This is why quite clearly where Basil can't be considered.

Allan Lamb for example would almost certainly make a ENG ATXI one-day team, he always wanted to play for SA too. Based on that Basil "would have loved to represent SA logic" you would have to put Lamb up for SA ATXI ODI team consideration which is crap.

We all know the issue with Basil was because he was coloured & those days SA was not picking such players for well documented sad history reasons. So yes had he been white he would most certainly have played for them. But that's a whole different debate since you would have to start digging up and considering all the other potentially talented black/coloured SA players like Basil from 1890-1971 who didn't/couldn't take the chance like Basil to go overseas or get recognized by racist SA cricket at the time in your equation as the article i posted before highlighted - South Africa all-time XI: the men who missed out | Cricket | ESPN Cricinfo

That is not something you can accurately judge, thus why a SA ATXI in most cases up until the emergence of Amla would be predominantly all-white.

 

[Pratters]

Tony Grieg and Allan Lamb shifted to England far earlier in their careers than Dolly. Dolly was also regarded as outstanding just like Richards and Pollock. Dolly was the greatest of the coloured cricketers there were at the time. The fact that he made his test debut at 35 for England (Greig debuted at 26, Lamb at 28) and managed to make a career after that is remarkable. Basil made his debut for England in 1966. If you were asked to make an All Time South African XI uptill 1960, say, one could give same reasons for selecting Basil which you give for selecting D Oliveira. He was excellent as rated by his peers but didn't play enough international cricket.

 

[Red]

As good as D'Olivera was he's not getting anywhere near a SA ATG XI middle order anyhow, whether he'd played tests for them or not.

40 average in tests and FC and not even two wickets a match.

No way is he contending for a spot against Kallis, Nourse, Amla, Faulkner, DeVilliers, G. Pollock.

I know I shouldn't take anything in this thread seriously, but c'mon.

 

[Pratters]

He was past his best by the time he made his test debut at 35. His exploits in coloured cricket is stuff of legends. He was considered the greatest Coloured cricketers and faced two international teams as their captain. He also made 80 centuries as coloured cricketer in SA. Most of his career we know of as a FC and test cricketer happened in his 30s. My point is not that he would make the SA XI. My point is that if Richards should, he should too as he was also considered pretty damn good when he played cricket in the 20s in SA. His exploits are stuff of legends.

 

[aussie]

Tony Grieg and Allan Lamb shifted to England far earlier in their careers than Dolly. Dolly was also regarded as outstanding just like Richards and Pollock. Dolly was the greatest of the coloured cricketers there were at the time. The fact that he made his test debut at 35 for England (Greig debuted at 26, Lamb at 28) and managed to make a career after that is remarkable. Basil made his debut for England in 1966. If you were asked to make an All Time South African XI uptill 1960, say, one could give same reasons for selecting Basil which you give for selecting D Oliveira. He was excellent as rated by his peers but didn't play enough international cricket.

Ha i like the argument attempt goal-post shift point of "If you were asked to make an All Time South African XI uptill 1960". Even that wouldn't make sense because IIRC Basil came to England in 1960 for first time to play league cricket - not even county cricket. He first officially played CC in 1964 & from that point people started to take note of him.

So that means anything before 1964 you were judging on the unknown variables of coloured cricket leagues in SA & minor league in UK. There is no way in 1960 he would be considered for SA ATXI based on that.

A SA ATXI up until 1960 would/could have been:

Bruce Mitchell
Jackie McGlew
Dudley Nourse
Herbie Taylor
John Waite
Aubrey Faulkner
Jock Cameron
Hugh Tayfield
Neil Adcock
Peter Heine
Johannes Kotze/Jimmy Sinclair

Trevor Goddard close consideration up to that point of his career also

Starting in coloured cricket leagues with little hype in SA or globally is no comparison to the Richards situation where he started with global recognition in CC, Sheffield shield, currie cup & WSC. You just clutching at straws man..

 

[Pratters]

You don't get my point at all aussie. Any ways.

 

[aussie]

He was past his best by the time he made his test debut at 35. His exploits in coloured cricket is stuff of legends. He was considered the greatest Coloured cricketers and faced two international teams as their captain. He also made 80 centuries as coloured cricketer in SA. Most of his career we know of as a FC and test cricketer happened in his 30s. My point is not that he would make the SA XI. My point is that if Richards should, he should too as he was also considered pretty damn good when he played cricket in the 20s in SA. His exploits are stuff of legends.

To Kenya & East Africa, really that what you hyping teams who were minnows? Ha smh.

No to play down his talents which were obvious later when he got to ENG, but that isn't even remotely comparable to the SA player of the 80s who played rebel tours vs strong ENG/WI/AUS/SRI teams.

The only potential international standard/test team he could have faced was a Frank Worrell led WI team around 58/59 (will check back his biography book to confirm) that was cancelled, which was coincidentally the moment he decided that moving to ENG was a must for his career progress.

 

[aussie]

You don't get my point at all aussie. Any ways.

I get your point perfectly, it makes no sense. So you can stay believing based on your shocking reasoning that Basil has a similar claim to Richards to be considered for a SA ATXI. I'm done here since I've reached the 3 post debate limit.

 

[Pratters]

I get your point perfectly, it makes no sense. So you can stay believing based on your shocking reasoning that Basil has a similar claim to Richards to be considered for a SA ATXI. I'm done here since I've reached the 3 post debate limit.

I doubt it.

 

[cnerd123]

The more of aussie I read, the more I suspect he may have a learning disability of some kind.

 

[nevermind]

I've taken a lot from this thread and really feel like I have a new understanding of how to assess player ability. I think we can ignore Adam Gilchrist for now, as it's clear he wasn't actually all that good, in fact there is someone else who would have been Australia's greatest. Johnathan Thurston. This might seem a little out of left field (fun fact: where he actually plays), but nonetheless a fascinating discovery.

Now if we could just get him into the team for the 2nd Test we'd be all but assured of wrapping up the series. Also if we could change the venue of the 2nd Test to Townsville that would be good too. Food for thought (and a meaningful contribution to what is fast becoming the best thread on the forum).

 

[aussie]

The more of aussie I read, the more I suspect he may have a learning disability of some kind.

And the more I read of ***** I suspect you have similar disabilities of an even more grotesque kind that goes way beyond basic learning.

 

[cnerd123]

And the more I read of ***** I suspect you have similar disabilities of an even more grotesque kind that goes way beyond basic learning.

How grotesque are my disabilities? Do they strike you as bad as being gay?

 

[aussie]

How grotesque are my disabilities? Do they strike you as bad as being gay?

Ha good trolling, loving your obsession with me ATM & usual attempts to stay away from a cricket discussion, that you are all up in my profile and all my posts, liking and digging posts from 10 years ago. Sorry to disappoint, but I'm not that into you *****...

 

[OverratedSanity]

Ha is the new yo

 

[Coronis]

Personal insults will really help all of this.

 

[OverratedSanity]

Lol @ *****. Tries to get aussie banned. Gets banned himself. Well done.

 

[TheJediBrah]

Got to respect Aussie's trolling/posting to an extent. I haven't really been following but I assume Aussie is talking **** and ***** just getting pissed off by it but if you were to just judge from the last few pages/posts then Aussie is the one who's posts look mature and have a sensible vibe where as ***** just went full on insults so points to Aussie on this one I'd have to say.

 

[Victor Ian]

Yep Aussie scored in this one and has boosted his average. But all the good Attacks are past their prime so.....