The ATG Teams General arguing/discussing thread

[Lillian Thomson]

1. Len Hutton
2. Sunil Gavaskar
3. Don Bradman
4. Ronald Reagan
5. Viv Richards
6. Garry Sobers
7. Alan Knott
8. Shane Warne
9. Richard Hadlee
10. Malcolm Marshall
11. Dennis Lillee

 

[kyear2]

You can actually replace Gilchrist with someone like Knott given the batting strength of that team... Really good side.

For everything I have been reading, as great as Knott undoubtedly was, I would still place Oldfield, Tallon and Cameron over him. H.B was also a very good batsman.

 

[kyear2]

For today then.

Jack Hobbs
Len Hutton
Don Bradman
Viv Richards
Sachin Tendulkar
Garry Sobers
Jock Cameron
Wasim Akram
Malcolm Marshall
Shane Warne
Glenn Mcgrath

 

[The Battlers Prince]

I've been trying to put together a team of players who are said to have been great wet or underprepared wicket players. I've listed the team with an example of a performance

Underprepared Wickets and Sticky Dogs XI
1. Jack Hobbs - 1909, Birmingham:- NOBODY else scored a half century in the test, on a soft "tricky" pitch.
2. WG Grace - No particular match, but before heavy rollers were used was the greatest batsman of all in FC
3&4. George Headley, Wally Hammond - Jan 8-10 1935 Kensington Oval, Headley and Hammond alone scored over 15 in the first innings on a very wet wicket
5. Victor Trumper - the Wet northern summer of 1902; outscored the best Australian of the previous DRY tour, Darling by 600+ runs, he scored 2570 on the tour
6. Arthur Shrewsbury - 1886 at Lords on day one scored 91 after and during periods of rain
7. Alan Knott+ - debut '67 against Pak 2nd Innings took 4 catches on wet soft wicket, he and Underwood performed well together on those occasions
8. John Wisden - like WG, Wisden played on underprepared pitches and while the number 8 spot is low for someone considered such a good allrounder, in this company it's what he gets. The greatest feat of his career was when he clean bowled all ten wickets in the second innings of the South v. North game at Lord's in 1850.
9. Headley Verity 1934 at Lords, rain fell after their innings, then Verity took 7/61 first innings and 8/43 in the second.
10. Wilfred Rhodes - 1902 Birmingham, scored 38 with the bat, then took 7 wickets for 17 after rain
11. Fred "Demon" Spofforth - 1882 the first Ashes test and 14 wickets on a bad pitch

1. Jack Hobbs
2. WG Grace
3. George Headley
4. Wally Hammond
5. Victor Trumper
6. Arthur Shrewsbury
7. Allan Knott+
8. John Wisden
9. Headley Verity
10. Wilfred Rhodes
11. Fred Spofforth

 

[Lillian Thomson]

I've been trying to put together a team of players who are said to have been great wet or underprepared wicket players. I've listed the team with an example of a performance

Underprepared Wickets and Sticky Dogs XI
1. Jack Hobbs - 1909, Birmingham:- NOBODY else scored a half century in the test, on a soft "tricky" pitch.
2. WG Grace - No particular match, but before heavy rollers were used was the greatest batsman of all in FC
3&4. George Headley, Wally Hammond - Jan 8-10 1935 Kensington Oval, Headley and Hammond alone scored over 15 in the first innings on a very wet wicket
5. Victor Trumper - the Wet northern summer of 1902; outscored the best Australian of the previous DRY tour, Darling by 600+ runs, he scored 2570 on the tour
6. Arthur Shrewsbury - 1886 at Lords on day one scored 91 after and during periods of rain
7. Alan Knott+ - debut '67 against Pak 2nd Innings took 4 catches on wet soft wicket, he and Underwood performed well together on those occasions
8. John Wisden - like WG, Wisden played on underprepared pitches and while the number 8 spot is low for someone considered such a good allrounder, in this company it's what he gets. The greatest feat of his career was when he clean bowled all ten wickets in the second innings of the South v. North game at Lord's in 1850.
9. Headley Verity 1934 at Lords, rain fell after their innings, then Verity took 7/61 first innings and 8/43 in the second.
10. Wilfred Rhodes - 1902 Birmingham, scored 38 with the bat, then took 7 wickets for 17 after rain
11. Fred "Demon" Spofforth - 1882 the first Ashes test and 14 wickets on a bad pitch

1. Jack Hobbs
2. WG Grace
3. George Headley
4. Wally Hammond
5. Victor Trumper
6. Arthur Shrewsbury
7. Allan Knott+
8. John Wisden
9. Headley Verity
10. Wilfred Rhodes
11. Fred Spofforth

Derek Underwood was the most unplayable bowler ever on a sticky wicket. Prime example would be Lords 1974 when Pakistan got caught twice. The first innings was after rain when wickets were still uncovered and the seconds innings after the covers leaked overnight.

2nd Test: England v Pakistan at Lord's, Aug 8-13, 1974 | Cricket Scorecard | ESPN Cricinfo

 

[The Battlers Prince]

Derek Underwood was the most unplayable bowler ever on a sticky wicket. Prime example would be Lords 1974 when Pakistan got caught twice. The first innings was after rain when wickets were still uncovered and the seconds innings after the covers leaked overnight.

2nd Test: England v Pakistan at Lord's, Aug 8-13, 1974 | Cricket Scorecard | ESPN Cricinfo

I thought of Underwood, that's why I mentioned him in the post with Knott. But I opted to go for two slow left armers already. Verity would captain the side and Rhodes was also considered a wet wicket "must have". Underwood definitely worth a shout though

 

[AndyZaltzHair]

For today then.

Jack Hobbs
Len Hutton
Don Bradman
Viv Richards
Sachin Tendulkar
Garry Sobers
Jock Cameron
Wasim Akram
Malcolm Marshall
Shane Warne
Glenn Mcgrath

Cameron what a legend. Not being often mentioned.

 

[watson]

If I were 150 years old and had seen all the great cricketers play ATG XI....

01. Jack Hobbs
02. Victor Trumper
03. Don Bradman
04. Graeme Pollock
05. Kumar Ranjitsinhji
06. Garry Sobers
07. Imran Khan
08. Bert Oldfield
09. Malcolm Marshall
10. Wilfred Rhodes
11. Sydney Barnes

 

[Days of Grace]

Hussey was 5. Bevan 6. Couldn't justify having Bevan ahead of Hussey because their averages are similar but Hussey strikes at 87 and Bevan at 74, so Hussey really had to go ahead.

I suspect this is how NZ beat Aussie. Bevan would have faced Hadlee a lot with Hadlee's ER of 3.3. This would have meant Aussie strangled itself at a point in the innings when NZ have Anderson, McCullum and Lance Cairns.

I'll do a Bevan vs Maxwell head to head sim to test it out, with both players at 6 after Hussey.

I think strike-rates and economy-rates need to be adjusted for this simulation. There is no way Garner would concede 3.0 runs an over in the modern game, for example.

 

[Red]

I think strike-rates and economy-rates need to be adjusted for this simulation. There is no way Garner would concede 3.0 runs an over in the modern game, for example.

This is one I'm not sure about. McGrath went at 3.8 in ODIs and I can't imagine Garner ever getting really taken apart.

 

[Zinzan]

If I were 150 years old and had seen all the great cricketers play ATG XI....

01. Jack Hobbs
02. Victor Trumper
03. Don Bradman
04. Graeme Pollock
05. Kumar Ranjitsinhji
06. Garry Sobers
07. Imran Khan
08. Bert Oldfield
09. Malcolm Marshall
10. Wilfred Rhodes
11. Sydney Barnes

Cool side, although you're not 150 years old so what are you basing it on?

 

[kiwiviktor81]

I think strike-rates and economy-rates need to be adjusted for this simulation. There is no way Garner would concede 3.0 runs an over in the modern game, for example.

They adjust automatically in a way because modern batsmen have higher strike rates and Garner tends to go for closer to 4 against them. Likewise Bevan scores at closer to 82 against Anderson, Southee, Santner et al.

 

[watson]

This is one I'm not sure about. McGrath went at 3.8 in ODIs and I can't imagine Garner ever getting really taken apart.

Just very quickly....

Joel Garner 'Era' ER : 4.00

Glenn McGrath 'Era' ER: 4.63

4.63 / 4.00 = 1.16

Adjusted Joel Garner ER: 3.09 x 1.16 = 3.58

Glenn McGrath ER = 3.88

Joel Garner is 0.3 runs per over more Economical than Glenn McGrath in real terms.

 

[Days of Grace]

They adjust automatically in a way because modern batsmen have higher strike rates and Garner tends to go for closer to 4 against them. Likewise Bevan scores at closer to 82 against Anderson, Southee, Santner et al.

Ok, fair enough, then.

 

[AndyZaltzHair]

WK XI ( in batting order)

1. Les Ames
2. Alan Knott
3. Syed Kirmani
4. Godfrey Evans
5. Jock Cameron
6. Don Tallon
7. Wally Grout
8. Jack Blackham
9. Bert Oldfield
10. Wasim Bari
11. Herbert Strudwick

 

[Red]

Just very quickly....

Joel Garner 'Era' ER : 4.00

Glenn McGrath 'Era' ER: 4.63

4.63 / 4.00 = 1.16

Adjusted Joel Garner ER: 3.09 x 1.16 = 3.58

Glenn McGrath ER = 3.88

Joel Garner is 0.3 runs per over more Economical than Glenn McGrath in real terms.

I've got no idea how people work out these era adjustments. But I do know that I watched Garner bowl in ODIs and he was near unplayable at times. So economical it was ridiculous. He had everything: height, express pace and that ****ing awkward angular thing going on that meant he was near impossible to hit in the air long.

God he was good, and he would be the best ODI bowler in any era.

 

[kiwiviktor81]

All-rounders ODI XI

1. Chris Gayle (9)
2. Nathan Astle (8)
3. Jacques Kallis (4)
4. AB de Villiers (wk)
5. Imran Khan (1)
6. Chris Cairns (3)
7. Glenn Maxwell (10)
8. Kapil Dev (2)
9. Lance Klusener (6)
10. Lance Cairns (7)
11. Daniel Vettori (5)

 

[Red]

Get Freddie in there man.

 

[kiwiviktor81]

I've got no idea how people work out these era adjustments. But I do know that I watched Garner bowl in ODIs and he was near unplayable at times. So economical it was ridiculous. He had everything: height, express pace and that ****ing awkward angular thing going on that meant he was near impossible to hit in the air long.

God he was good, and he would be the best ODI bowler in any era.

It's also why I don't believe in era adjustments. Batsmen might be more aggressive nowadays but that doesn't necessarily mean they would try and take to Garner. There's usually one bowler on every team who just gets played out, usually their most dangerous, and in any team that bowler would be Garner.

 

[kiwiviktor81]

Get Freddie in there man.

He can bat 6 when Cairns inevitably gets injured.