Any updates on NZ's tour of Oz later this year?

[Flem274*]

inb4 cray cray peeps say jeets is better by miles

the plunket shield is so cruel to spinners. craig isn't a guy statsboyz would ever touch. what makes me so curious to see tastle in action against foreign batsmen though is he has incredible statz by shield standards and he looks pretty respectable on the eye these days.

 

[CaptainGrumpy]

I don't think Craig's average is misleading at all. He's not a very good bowler yet. He's a handy addition to the team in that he actually tries to spin the ball - and as you noted can perform the day 5 role quite nicely when in form. But equally he bowls mountains of rubbish far too often and has made significant contributions to a couple of losses (v WI in 2014 and v ENG at Lords - particularly on day 4 when he was really needed) to go along with his strong showings at Kingston, Dubai and Leeds.

I think it is a little bit. I basically agree with you but I do think his current ability is more that of a high-30s average bowler than a 40+ average bowler.

He's averaging 24 in the fourth innings. He is going close to 4 wickets a test. That is fine for a finger spinner that is not Murali. Its certainly more than Nathan Lyon. His major issue is his economy on days 1-3. I think he needs to bowl defensively on these days instead of ripping the ball for it not to do much off the pitch and get spanked. This will involve him becoming a more intelligent and experienced cricketer. Knowing to rip it on the last day and look for foot marks and when it turns earlier, such as in Asia.

Normally a 40+ average bowler is not someone you associate with 4 wickets per test average and winning tests for their captain 3.5/10. That is why I say its misleading. He is averaging more wickets per test at a similar strike rate to Nathan Lyon. His fourth innings performances are comparable with Shane Warne. Seriously. Striking at 42s for 24 runs. Warne was striking at 53 for 23. Even Murali in fourth innings was only striking at 50. Lyon is striking at 68 for 33 runs in the fourth innings. Craig is a match winner. Vettori isn't even within cooey striking at 89.8 for 38. Forget about Jeets too.

Craig's average does not do his ability to win matches justice. He is cannon fodder on days 1-3 (unless in Asia) and he needs to get through that workload far more cheaply. That will come with experience when he tries to rip it less and just worries about getting through overs cheaply when nothing is turning or working for him. Once he does his numbers will reveal his match winning ability - because he can rip it and cause good players of spin problems when the pitch is more favourable for him at the end of a match.

 

[SteveNZ]

Bingo, Mr Grumpy. I know it's impossible to watch every Test NZ play in due to time zones etc but the over-reliance on the broad picture of stats in judging someone happens far too often.

I've said this before but Mark Craig wasn't a full-time off-spinner until he went to Otago, which was 08 if I'm not mistaken. Even then, he had the fatigue stuff for a year or so after that. So he's probably had 5-6 years in his craft. That is 5 minutes in the sense of a skill like off-spin. So he's had plenty of time to learn to give it a big rip, but hardly any to learn to bowl in non-conducive conditions, to tie down scoring. He'll get there. For the meantime, we have a guy who can genuinely win us Test matches. If anyone wants to look back at Jeet with rose-tinted glasses, he never did that.

Warne averaged 24 or whatever because he was lethal in any innings. If Craig averages 35 or so with 25 in the second, we're taking that right? And if he can be parsimonious when not taking wickets, as I believe he'll learn to be, more happy days.

 

[ImpatientLime]

hometeamwinslol

 

[CaptainGrumpy]

Bingo, Mr Grumpy. I know it's impossible to watch every Test NZ play in due to time zones etc but the over-reliance on the broad picture of stats in judging someone happens far too often.

I've said this before but Mark Craig wasn't a full-time off-spinner until he went to Otago, which was 08 if I'm not mistaken. Even then, he had the fatigue stuff for a year or so after that. So he's probably had 5-6 years in his craft. That is 5 minutes in the sense of a skill like off-spin. So he's had plenty of time to learn to give it a big rip, but hardly any to learn to bowl in non-conducive conditions, to tie down scoring. He'll get there. For the meantime, we have a guy who can genuinely win us Test matches. If anyone wants to look back at Jeet with rose-tinted glasses, he never did that.

Warne averaged 24 or whatever because he was lethal in any innings. If Craig averages 35 or so with 25 in the second, we're taking that right? And if he can be parsimonious when not taking wickets, as I believe he'll learn to be, more happy days.

I know its difficult as the national team wants to blood Santner into the Vettori role, and trial Sodhi as our version of Imran Tahir or Brad Hogg, but I think Craig would benefit from some limited overs cricket. Not as a long term or permanent member, but just to learn some economical bowling skills that he can transfer into the test arena on days 1-3 to improve on his economy on those days.

He has only bowled in 8 List A 50 over games, and was carted at 5.73. He desperately needs some economy bowling and training to go with his match winning ripping.

 

[SteveNZ]

Totally agree. He's good enough to be a Test match winning spinner now, something we've been crying out for, and he'll only get better - especially from bowling on flat ones in Plunket Shield, in List As and T20s. And I couldn't care less if he doesn't take FC wickets on dead dodos in Rangiora for Otago, as long as he can learn how to hold up an end along the way.

 

[vic_orthdox]

Last thing I'd do is bowl him in ODIs. Don't make him sacrifice what he does have, to get himself dots and stop slogs.

 

[kiwiviktor81]

Last thing I'd do is bowl him in ODIs. Don't make him sacrifice what he does have, to get himself dots and stop slogs.

Nah, it's not about reworking his action or plans or anything like that. Just adding more tools to the toolbox.

 

[NZTailender]

Nah, it's not about reworking his action or plans or anything like that. Just adding more tools to the toolbox.

You say 'adding more tool to the toolbox' but it's also entirely possible he'll start bowling more darts which will drift into his longer form game.

I'd rather he play as much long format cricket as possible - in CC, A tours, whatever he can get. I don't think ODI cricket will benefit him that much.

 

[Hurricane]

You say 'adding more tool to the toolbox' but it's also entirely possible he'll start bowling more darts which will drift into his longer form game.

I'd rather he play as much long format cricket as possible - in CC, A tours, whatever he can get. I don't think ODI cricket will benefit him that much.

awta.

 

[Hurricane]

awta.

also maybe you can make a case for list a, but definitely not ODIs which we want to actually win.

 

[CaptainGrumpy]

also maybe you can make a case for list a, but definitely not ODIs which we want to actually win.

There is definitely a case for List A and no-one is suggesting he play ODIs where we have to be at our best to win. It was a reference to Zimbabwe tour coming up - hence the reference to Sodhi.

His economy rate in the opposition first innings is his problem, and the team's problem. He needs to learn ways to redress it and get through his workload. List A will give him the chance to harness that skill. He has only played 8 innings of it. That's next to nothing for a front line test spinner.

 

[CaptainGrumpy]

Nah, it's not about reworking his action or plans or anything like that. Just adding more tools to the toolbox.

Yip, you get it.

He's actually already got the hard part fairly well mastered, bowling a team to victory at the end. He just needs an opportunity to learn what is normally the easier part for a finger spinner, bowling economically on days 1-3 (unless in Asia) until the pitch starts working for him.

 

[BackFootPunch]

He's played heaps of limited overs cricket though, to be fair. Numerous seasons of bowling for Otago A on the flat decks at Lincoln, and a fair bit of wheeling away for Albion in club cricket over the years. I don't think he'll get that much more from playing List A really.

I think it was at National Club Champs a couple of years ago that he took a bit of tap, and came out and said he wasn't that keen to bowl darts when it would affect his longer form bowling. He then went to the Windies and won us the first Test.

 

[CaptainGrumpy]

He's played heaps of limited overs cricket though, to be fair. Numerous seasons of bowling for Otago A on the flat decks at Lincoln, and a fair bit of wheeling away for Albion in club cricket over the years. I don't think he'll get that much more from playing List A really.

I think it was at National Club Champs a couple of years ago that he took a bit of tap, and came out and said he wasn't that keen to bowl darts when it would affect his longer form bowling. He then went to the Windies and won us the first Test.

Please. Bowling to test batsmen on days 1-3 from around the globe with the Warners, Smiths and Clarkes waiting for him and your suggesting he learnt to be economical on days 1-3 from his craft bowling for Otago A and Albion? List A where domestic FC cricketers are looking to score at a bare minimum would be better preparation to learn his trade. We aint playing no SCG game. GABBA may turn early. Perth and Adelaide probably not.

 

[Hurricane]

Please. Bowling to test batsmen on days 1-3 from around the globe with the Warners, Smiths and Clarkes waiting for him and your suggesting he learnt to be economical on days 1-3 from his craft bowling for Otago A and Albion? List A where domestic FC cricketers are looking to score at a bare minimum would be better preparation to learn his trade. We aint playing no SCG game. GABBA may turn early. Perth and Adelaide probably not.

read BFPs post again, you havn't absorbed it,

 

[BackFootPunch]

Please. Bowling to test batsmen on days 1-3 from around the globe with the Warners, Smiths and Clarkes waiting for him and your suggesting he learnt to be economical on days 1-3 from his craft bowling for Otago A and Albion? List A where domestic FC cricketers are looking to score at a bare minimum would be better preparation to learn his trade. We aint playing no SCG game. GABBA may turn early. Perth and Adelaide probably not.

No I'm suggesting that he's just not going to get much more from List A cricket than he's already got from other limited overs stuff, at least in terms of what will translate to his Test game. I fully agree that he needs to be more economical on days 1-3, and I'm sure he'd agree with that too. I just don't think playing List A or ODIs is the way for him to improve in that regard.

He's better off bowling in longer form cricket in a wide variety of situations and on varied surfaces. It's arguable that being able to contain guys in a limited overs game actually means anything to longer form cricket anyway. Being tight in Test cricket and being tight in ODIs is totally different most of the time. I'd rather he developed the ability to control his stock delivery more effectively and consistently, which won't happen by playing the short forms, as that will help him be more useful early in Tests.

 

[BackFootPunch]

Also, the excellent Test spinners who have had ODI success (Warne, Murali, Saqlain etc.) did it, largely, through translating their longer form skills to the one day game. Their Test skills were so outstanding that the were still effective even in short form cricket. That's the route I'd like to see Mark Craig take - become dominant and sure in his longer form bowling, then take it to the short forms if necessary.

 

[CaptainGrumpy]

read BFPs post again, you havn't absorbed it,

I think its more a case that he has not absorbed mine. Sometimes people learning by osmosis means they go at a snail's pace.

 

[CaptainGrumpy]

Also, the excellent Test spinners who have had ODI success (Warne, Murali, Saqlain etc.) did it, largely, through translating their longer form skills to the one day game. Their Test skills were so outstanding that the were still effective even in short form cricket. That's the route I'd like to see Mark Craig take - become dominant and sure in his longer form bowling, then take it to the short forms if necessary.

The guy has an economy problem in test cricket and you want him to play domestic List A and Zimbabwe ODI cricket once he dominates test?

Putting the cart before the horse. The idea is to up skill him so as to perform very well in test cricket.

I think you're seriously missing the point that he has played more test matches than List A matches. Talk Murali, Warne, Saqlain all you like. Having played more tests than List A matches would be rare. Any front line test spinner to have bowled in only 8 List A innings would be very uncommon, bar possibly rushed "prodigies" (Asia style). The aforementioned all played more List A than tests... They also got their economy rates down in test over time and started playing ODI's (and subsequently repeated the same in meaningful ODI). Now Nathan Lyon has played more tests than List A, but he has played 30 List A games (of which 8 were for Australia). Mark Craig may only need 20 more List A games to helkp get his test economy down on days 1-3.

And as for the gist of your post. You're in a dream world if you think Mark Craig could replicate Warne or Murali. The guy is a regular finger spinner. He aint going to get turn on any pitch on day one. Saqlain was a doosra bowler, would his doosra be legal today? Compare apples with apples. Not a good bowler with world all time great leg spinner and funny arm Murali bowler. You want Craig turning it square on day 1 of a test in Australia? Yeah - not gonna happen. Get real. Want him to turn it square in the second let alone the first innings of a List A match on a fresh pitch? Not likely.