CaptainGrumpy
Banned
Kane can do the Viv Richards/Carl Hooper role.I don't know what you are on about. But it shows a lack of understanding of the role of a 5th bowler and what they can contribute.
Zero points out of ten
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Any updates on NZ's tour of Oz later this year?
- Thread starter jonbrooks
- Start date
Hurricane
Hall of Fame Member
Ok. There is a disconnect about the role of the fifth bowler.
If you have a genuine batting all rounder in your team then your fifth bowler becomes a wicket taking option for you. Not only will he get through 10 overs a day to reduce the workload on the other bowlers but he will do so in a way where the batsman don't get a free lunch and have to concentrate hard to stay in if they can stay in that is. A good 5th bowler will pick up his share of wickets.
Maybe the old Kane who chucked could be described as a fifth bowler option, and I stress maybe, but he certainly isn't that status any more. He would be your 6th or 7th bowler in most sides. The 6th or 7th bowler is your partnership breaker who comes on to basically fluke a wicket on the basis that the batsman goes to sleep against him.
Asking Craig to bowl another 5 overs is not an option sometimes because he is not really a stock bowler. He gives it a rip, which is an exciting thing for us to have a bowler who does that, but he will not be economical and as such there will be times when it is not an option to bowl him or where the batsman have figured him out for the day and there is no point persevering with him.
Having Corey as a 5th bowling option could be the difference between taking all twenty wickets or not taking twenty wickets. He will chip people out.
The more Corey bowls by the way, the fresher Tim and Boult can stay so they can give it heaps. So if necessary Corey can bowl even more than 10 overs if he is in the rhythm.
The final advantage of Corey is that he is a seam option. As opposed to Kane being a spin option. This means that if it is swinging or a seaming wicket - we can keep going at the batsman with "pace" for an extended period while the ball is relatively new.
I think having 5 specialist bowlers is OTT - because then one of the bowlers will be under bowled. Having 4 plus a genuine all rounder is my current favourite team balance.
CaptainGrumpy
Banned
I will never agree that if someone is not in the 6 best bats or 4 best bowlers or a wk shoulf be selected barring exceptional circumstances.
kiwiviktor81
International Debutant
I'm hoping to see
1. Latham
2. Guptill
3. Williamson
4. Taylor
5. McCullum
6. Anderson (5)
7. Watling (wk)
8. Craig (4)
9. Henry (3)
10. Southee (2)
11. Boult (1)
1. Latham
2. Guptill
3. Williamson
4. Taylor
5. McCullum
6. Anderson (5)
7. Watling (wk)
8. Craig (4)
9. Henry (3)
10. Southee (2)
11. Boult (1)
Skyliner
International 12th Man
Are you guys following Haddin's comments in the run up to the Ashes? He seems to be sledging us half the time.
Haddin puzzled by hype around new England | Cricket | ESPN Cricinfo
He seems seriously miffed that the kudos that our tour of England got.
Will Baz and the team take any notice of his comments do you reckon? Will their resolve be steeled?
Haddin puzzled by hype around new England | Cricket | ESPN Cricinfo
He seems seriously miffed that the kudos that our tour of England got.
Will Baz and the team take any notice of his comments do you reckon? Will their resolve be steeled?
Hurricane
Hall of Fame Member
Well there was a time where we selected 5 batsman and 5 bowlers and a wicket keeper. It has only been in our last 4 years that we have gone back to 6 batsman. So 6 batsman may be your belief but it hasn't been one which has been used by all international teams at all times in history.
Teams with 6 batsman - often struggle with bowling unless one of the batsman can bowl a bit. England for a while had to bowl Jonathan Trott, and he was the very definition of cannon fodder.
England have Stokes
Australia have Watson
South Africa used to have Kallis
Pakistan have Hafeez
Sri Lanka have Angelo Matthews
Those teams had/have an advantage in the field.
Usually most countries in the world are struggling to come up with 6 quality test batsman anyway. You are doing well if you have 4 quality batsman let alone 5 batsman. As a result it is very rare that there will be a demonstrably clear cut batsman who is being left out of the side just to include a batting all rounder at number 6.
Who do New Zealand have that Corey would beat out that is a specialist batsman?
Ronchi - I don't rate him in the longer format.
Brownlie - You may have a case there. But again Dean is very weak against spin.
Michael Bracewell - Possibly but needs to some runs on the board against A teams to make his case.
Colin Munro - Pleeeaasse
Will Young - not ready
Darrel Mitchell - No.
There is no one hammering down the door for the 6th batsman spot possibly with the exception of Brownlie but he is positioning himself as an opener.
CaptainGrumpy
Banned
Ha. Haddin is priceless. England found ODI form, yeah two months too late for the World Cup.
"I don't understand where they're coming from with this," he said. "I don't understand this 'pleasant' thing. I don't know what it is. I don't know what I'm meant to say to it. If you could explain to me what it is."
Australians are so proud of their sledging. Its a point of national pride. Even when they look like pillocks, they just continue unashamed.
Apparently after Mathew Hayden brought out a cooking book, England sledged him with "Hey Hayden, you're sh!t, and so is you're chicken casserole". Apparently he burst out laughing and turned around and said "I'll pay that".
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CaptainGrumpy
Banned
yeah, we lost.
Yeah, we're winning.
The two great teams of the modern era did play 6 and 4.
They're were better between Flintoff and before Stokes.
He's still arguably a better bat than Shaun Marsh and int heir 6 best bats. He couldn't make the team when they had 6 good batsmen ahead of him. He got the benefit of a Macgill and Warne balance equation. In the end they just went Warne or MacGill. Best example against an allrounder.
Easily in their 6 best bats.
Jury's out. Pakistan selection policy is a merry go round.
Easily in their six best bats. Really only an allrounder in ODI cricket.
Brownlie and Ronchi.
Selectors may well do
He will be playing Lyon.
He can play middle order. Or Guptill can rejink.
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Hurricane
Hall of Fame Member
Brownlie's test match average is 30. Corey's 31. Don't write off Lyon btw in his own home conditions. He is probably the best spinner in the world in Australian conditions.
Guptil's average is south of 30 against top teams although admittedly his life is harder opening. I think his time down at number 5 he didn't do that great anyway against anyone not named Bangladesh.
In my heart, like you, I believe that Brownlie is probably a better batsman than Corey but he hasn't shown it consistently. Corey has a better upside in terms of growth potential.
Guptil's average is south of 30 against top teams although admittedly his life is harder opening. I think his time down at number 5 he didn't do that great anyway against anyone not named Bangladesh.
In my heart, like you, I believe that Brownlie is probably a better batsman than Corey but he hasn't shown it consistently. Corey has a better upside in terms of growth potential.
Hurricane
Hall of Fame Member
My strategy is to repeat it enough until other people start to say it too.
CaptainGrumpy
Banned
Brownlie scored a century in South Africa against Morkel, Philander and Steyn after we were rolled for 45 in the first innings. He is a better bat than Corey as demonstrated by their respective first class statistics.
This is Guptill mark 2. He knows that he needs to play shots to score in test cricket. And that he is allowed to. He will make more runs in this version (or perish).
Skyliner
International 12th Man
I think Brownlie is our Aussie pitch specialist. What he did over there in 2011 was very impressive. He doesn't like slower seamier tracks, he likes the pace and bounce. I'd take a horses for courses approach and play him. Guptill got a couple of 70's in England but it's the 2 ducks that worry me, he is a very poor starter these days in both tests and ODI's. I'd like to see Gup in a 12th man / sub fielder role.
CaptainGrumpy
Banned
I think if Brownlie plays you don't need to drop Guptill.
Hurricane
Hall of Fame Member
And it is the memories of that inning that fuel my opinions about him against spin.
Luckily for him they only had Robin Pieterson (Sp?)
Still I like your point about FC stats. Do remember though that Brownlie was older when he started his FC career here in NZ.
Skyliner
International 12th Man
I know that Gup is a very popular player but as I said, 2 ducks and two other innings where he didn't push on to a really big score.
Brownlie was supposed to the next cab off the rank, he scored a triple ton and then a big hundred, yet got surpassed by what Gup did against the West Indies quarter final of the WC.
It's strange that we can differentiate between ODI afford test form, and then all of a sudden we can't. Gup has always been an outstanding ODI player, but someone who has really struggled in tests. Take out his hundreds against Bangladesh and Zimbabwe and his average is very poor.
kiwiviktor81
International Debutant
I don't think it's accurate to judge Guptill on his first foray into the side. He is clearly a better player now, even with 2 ducks in 4 innings (very small sample size here, and he still averaged 35 for the series).
hendrix
Hall of Fame Member
Didn't Corey play his first first class game at the age of 16? He's clearly better than his first class average, in any case.
Brownlie does his pull-or-drive-like-ricky-ponting thing which looks ****ing great against pace but if you're batting 6 you have to be able to not have a heart attack when a spin bowler comes on.