*Official* New Zealand in England 2015

[Zinzan]

I hate defending him but it is arguably relevant when it was England's last match before this series and WI were chasing in the 4th innings like NZ.

Possibly a valid point...but probably more a case of the 'boy who cried wolf' given the historic inclinations there.

 

[WindieWeathers]

NZ opened with Tom Latham, a prospect in his early 20s with 10 Tests behind him, and Guptill, chiefly a one-day player making his Test comeback after 30-odd previous matches.
WI opened with Kraigg Brathwaite, a prospect in his early 20s with 20 Tests behind him, and Smith, chiefly a one-day player making his Test comeback after 30-odd previous matches.

FYI the fact that you haven't bothered to make a single post about England and/or when NZ were on top in this match marks out your agenda pretty well. It's clear from that much that you're making no attempt to post as a neutral supporter in this series and everyone is sick of it, not just the handful of kiwis you've decided to fall out with.

Have a spell.

You didn't read my post properly did you? Smith never played in the LAST match, Shai Hope did, which is the game i was talking about hence i said "two rookies". So at least get your facts right before having a go.

 

[Zinzan]

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Sorry, who do you mean? Please be clear.

 

[Zinzan]

A technique known as Athlying it.

Which part? The 'openly disagreeing' or the 'talking up of Jeets'? Or both?

 

[Bahnz]

Not really if you think he was on Hesson's tour to SA in 2013 and then declined the invite to go to the Windies last year.

I sometimes think that Jeets' efforts to gain and hold an international place should be titled "A series of unfortunate events." He spends the first 4 years of his test career permanently stuck in the queue behind Vettori, getting odd test matches here and there. Even when he gets picked on the occasional subcontinent tour, like India in 2010, he gets stuck playing on pancake pitches rather than viscious turners. Finally he gets a callup in 2012 following his impressive county form. He bowls very well in India, only to watch 4 or 5 straightforward chances go down from his close-in fielders (with van Wyk and Taylor particularly culpable), and finish the series with only passable figures.

His subsequent performances on NZ's tour to SA are admittedly poor - but in a team where Chris Martin has held a place for more than a decade, people begin calling for his head for his batting. Media pressure goes on demanding his axing, but the selectors seem keen to keep him in the mix. Then real tragedy - his mother dies in early 2013. Patel is in no shape to contest the England home series and is replaced by Bruce Martin.

Martin does just well enough to retain a place for the return-leg, but bowls poorly at Lords' and comes down injured. The logical next step for the selectors should have been to replace him with a spinner - ideally one already in England and with experience of bowling in English conditions. However, because the series is being played in an Ashes year it is only 2 tests long and in order to try and level the series, the selectors decide on all-out attack in the form of 4 seamers. So Jeets misses out again.

Then there was the preposterous Sodhi selection, and Jeets' subsequent deliberate standing down from the 2014 tour. Look, I don't think Jeets would've been sensational for NZ, but there really shouldn't be any question that he's the best spinner in the country and that he should've been our first choice from the 2013 Headingly test onwards.

 

[Athlai]

Which part? The 'openly disagreeing' or the 'talking up of Jeets'? Or both?

I used to have a reputation round here

 

[WindieWeathers]

Sorry, who do you mean? Please be clear.

What has he done since he played in Sri-lanka? Is he still doing well domestically?

 

[Prince EWS]

I hate defending him but it is arguably relevant when it was England's last match before this series and WI were chasing in the 4th innings like NZ.

Nah it's not relevant just because he can muster up a comparison with a long bow. I'm sure if he sat there long enough he could find some ridiculous comparison to make everything he wanted to say about the West Indies, which is obviously exactly what he did there. The fact that he compares everything to the West Indies or West Indies players in some way and creates debates about the quality of random West Indian player v random player who actually is vaguely related to the series is exactly the problem and exactly what he was getting warned for all the time. There's no way he makes that post if the last Test England played was against Pakistan and their openers managed the might of 35 runs in 13 overs in the second innings, for example. He's just not interested in doing anything but baiting people into a debate about players from the team they follow and players from the team he follows.

I probably shouldn't be going to moderation rants inside the thread, so I'll stop arguing with people, but FFS WW, don't do what you just did. "Don't derail threads with West Indian comparisons" doesn't mean "don't mention West Indian players by name but allude to them and bait other people into starting the debate for you".

 

[Zinzan]

NZ opened with Tom Latham, a prospect in his early 20s with 10 Tests behind him, and Guptill, chiefly a one-day player making his Test comeback after 30-odd previous matches.
WI opened with Kraigg Brathwaite, a prospect in his early 20s with 20 Tests behind him, and Smith, chiefly a one-day player making his Test comeback after 30-odd previous matches.

FYI the fact that you haven't bothered to make a single post about England and/or when NZ were on top in this match marks out your agenda pretty well. It's clear from that much that you're making no attempt to post as a neutral supporter in this series and everyone is sick of it, not just the handful of kiwis you've decided to fall out with.

Have a spell.

I'm almost certain he genuinely thinks people are too 'stupid' to see through him which is kind of ironic considering how painfully transparent it is for anyone who bothers to read more than 3 posts.

 

[vic_orthdox]

No baby out with the bathwater from NZers.

Besides the application of the tail (by the sounds of it, I missed it), the talk of over-aggressiveness is being exaggerated. At Lords, even with an extra guy on the fence, it's quite possible to score comfortably anyway. The issue was not the fields, it was the inability to apply pressure from Craig when the big partnerships were underway, and bowling two sides of the wicket (Boult, Southee in particular spells).

And those getting into Southee, you know what he looked like? A guy straight back from a T20 tournament.

 

[Zinzan]

I used to have a reputation round here

Oh, the latter then..

 

[WindieWeathers]

Nah it's not relevant just because he can muster up a comparison with a long bow. I'm sure if he sat there long enough he could find some ridiculous comparison to make everything he wanted to say about the West Indies, which is obviously exactly what he did there. The fact that he compares everything to the West Indies or West Indies players in some way and creates debates about the quality of random West Indian player v random player who actually is vaguely related to the series is exactly the problem and exactly what he was getting warned for all the time. There's no way he makes that post if the last Test England played was against Pakistan and their openers managed the might of 35 runs in 13 overs in the second innings, for example. He's just not interested in doing anything but baiting people into a debate about players from the team they follow and players from the team he follows.

I probably shouldn't be going to moderation rants inside the thread, so I'll stop arguing with people, but FFS WW, don't do what you just did. "Don't derail threads with West Indian comparisons" doesn't mean "don't mention West Indian players by name but allude to them and bait other people into starting the debate for you".

Like i said i honestly did not have those intentions Prince..I KNOW the hawks are circling my every post waiting for a mistake so why would i take a silly risk? I made my argument purely from how both opening pairs approached their innings against the SAME attack..if we had played England last year i wouldn't have brought it up but for goodness sake Prince the game was merely weeks ago!!..and both WI and NZ had to chase against England...so please cut me some slack.

 

[Moss]

I was just making a comparison interms of the approach Prince. One team had rookies opening the batting and managed to take 13 overs out of the new ball which meant their middle order had less pressure. NZ's openers, who are vastly more experienced just seemed to come out swinging and when you consider they were just nine overs away from survival i think my point has merit. If Guptil and Latham were cautious in that opening spell NZ may have held on.

Guptill edged a good nut second ball and Latham lbw first ball. Hard to read anything into that, really. For all we know the instructions may have been for them to not come out swinging. England were simply on a roll with the new ball and they made it count.

 

[WindieWeathers]

No baby out with the bathwater from NZers.

Besides the application of the tail (by the sounds of it, I missed it), the talk of over-aggressiveness is being exaggerated. At Lords, even with an extra guy on the fence, it's quite possible to score comfortably anyway. The issue was not the fields, it was the inability to apply pressure from Craig when the big partnerships were underway, and bowling two sides of the wicket (Boult, Southee in particular spells).

And those getting into Southee, you know what he looked like? A guy straight back from a T20 tournament.

Boult was there too though and he was a class act.

 

[WindieWeathers]

Guptill edged a good nut second ball and Latham lbw first ball. Hard to read anything into that, really. For all we know the instructions may have been for them to not come out swinging. England were simply on a roll with the new ball and they made it count.

Guptil didn't have to follow that ball imo. He should have done a simple forward defence.

 

[NZTailender]

I hate defending him but it is arguably relevant when it was England's last match before this series and WI were chasing in the 4th innings like NZ.

Except for that NZ were chasing 350 odd on day 5 and WI were chasing 192 on Day 3, on different types of pitches (iirc), in different countries, with one of the NZ openers having just kept for 129 overs (out of his 202 total), yes they were totally the same situation. The only relevant part is that a team was chasing a total in the 4th innings against England.

 

[Bahnz]

Wow, ever since I took Chewie's advice and dropped WW on ignore, the atmosphere in this forum has become instantaneously more pleasant.

 

[Athlai]

Guptill edged a good nut second ball and Latham lbw first ball. Hard to read anything into that, really. For all we know the instructions may have been for them to not come out swinging. England were simply on a roll with the new ball and they made it count.

Na it was due to not having the defensive mindset of a certain couple other players.

 

[Cabinet96]

So you agree with Guptil and Latham going out there swinging from the first ball Athlai?

They got out 2nd and 1st ball respectively from good balls, trying to survive. What are you on about?

 

[Zinzan]

I sometimes think that Jeets efforts to gain and hold an international place should be titled "A series of unfortunate events." He spends the first 4 years of his test career permanently stuck in the queue behind Vettori, getting odd test matches here and there. Even when he gets picked on the occasional subcontinent tour, like India in 2010, he gets stuck playing on pancake pitches rather than viscious turners. Finally he gets a callup in 2012 following his impressive county form. He bowls very well in India, only to watch 4 or 5 straightforward chances go down from his close-in fielders (with van Wyk and Taylor particularly culpable), and finish the series with only passable figures.

His subsequent performances on NZ's tour to SA are admittedly poor - but in a team where Chris Martin has held a place for more than a decade, people begin calling for his head for his batting. Media pressure goes on demanding his axing, but the selectors seem keen to keep him in the mix. Then real tragedy - his mother dies in early 2013. Patel is in no shape to contest the England home series and is replaced by Bruce Martin.

Martin does just well enough to retain a place for the return-leg, but bowls poorly at Lords' and comes down injured. The logical next step for the selectors should have been to replace him with a spinner - ideally one already in England and with experience of bowling in English conditions. However, because the series is being played in an Ashes year it is only 2 tests long and in order to try and level the series, the selectors decide on all-out attack in the form of 4 seamers. So Jeets misses out again.

Then there was the preposterous Sodhi selection, and Jeets' subsequent deliberate standing down from the 2014 tour. Look, I don't think Jeets would've been sensational for NZ, but there really shouldn't be any question that he's the best spinner in the country and that he should've been our first choice from the 2013 Headingly test onwards.

Fwds this post to the McHessons with the title "please read and act accordingly"