*Official* English Football Season 2014-15

[Furball]

I edited the above, if you want to see my reasoning. I'm not saying he is not a great midfielder; I just don't rate him as most people do because of what has happened in the last 7-8 years. For me both that Barca and Spain team had a comparative advantage: playing with more or less the same players (most of them, the best of their generation), who've learned football in the same setup and used a revolutionary way to play the game - suffocating possession - to win an unprecedented amount of titles in this span of time.

I think for that time they had a comparative advantage and as we've seen it has been less and less effective as teams have learned to counter it. Consequently, so too has Xavi. Even Iniesta has had a poor season for his standards - his team might win the treble and he's been a passenger for the most part. Outside of high volume and high accuracy passing; I don't think other facets of their game stand out.

Take Pirlo; he does what they do; regardless of what team he plays in; and he is also one of the best creators from the deep - akin to an attacking midfielder. I think he'd be universally great no matter what team he'd play in; I have my doubts about Xavi.

Iniests a passenger

Confirmation that you don't actually watch football, you just read stats sheets.

 

[GIMH]

Gerrard is a great; no lack of honours changes that. Only an utter moron would dispute that he could have had all the honours he wanted if he chosen not to stay at Liverpool. It doesn't degrade him as a player. You may think it makes him stupid; but regardless of the fact his head was turned, he never did walk away and in this horrible era of modern football, he should be commended for staying to steer that shop when it needed him far more than he needed it.

Club loyalties of us fans are all well and good and of course his slip will always be amusing but there comes a time where you have to swallow it up and accept he's a great and, as a one club man, along with the recently retired Man U few, of a dying breed in this country. It's a little sad that so few seem to want to do that.

 

[Furball]

Correction: all players, everyone, in history .

Nah, anyway to me there is no EPL midfielder who has been better and from 04-09 I think cumulatively he was the best player in the world. Definitely was thereabouts for a year or two. He was robbed of that Ballon d'Or after Istanbul.

Anyway, it's no secret I'm clearly biased but I just don't see how you could make a more complete midfielder. He literally played every position in midfield to a Player of the Year standard. I don't get the hate for him at all, it simply baffles me. Maybe he said or did something here or there to get on peoples' ****, but the hate is just ridiculous. I don't even hate Terry or Giggs and they're pieces of **** in comparison.



All surpassed when he was 23-24.

Heck, Vieira himself basically admitted it. Objectively, I just don't think their argument is as strong. He did what they did, as good if not better and did a whole lot more. He's like a hybrid of them, plus add in Lampard's goal scoring, plus the ability to play out wide because of his speed.

A player this good would have won more league titles than he has.

 

[Furball]

Gerrard is a great; no lack of honours changes that. Only an utter moron would dispute that he could have had all the honours he wanted if he chosen not to stay at Liverpool. It doesn't degrade him as a player. You may think it makes him stupid; but regardless of the fact his head was turned, he never did walk away and in this horrible era of modern football, he should be commended for staying to steer that shop when it needed him far more than he needed it.

Club loyalties of us fans are all well and good and of course his slip will always be amusing but there comes a time where you have to swallow it up and accept he's a great and, as a one club man, along with the recently retired Man U few, of a dying breed in this country. It's a little sad that so few seem to want to do that.

Such a great one club man that he's leaving the club in the summer.

 

[Furball]

2nd only to Wayne Rooney in the 'most over-rated English player of his generation' category.

 

[GIMH]

A player this good would have won more league titles than he has.

Drivel and you know it. Pretty much any club would have had him.

Such a great one club man that he's leaving the club in the summer.

Poor reasoning and logic. You're better than this.

 

[Ikki]

Iniests a passenger

Confirmation that you don't actually watch football, you just read stats sheets.

Haha, what? Have you been following the season at all? Iniesta hasn't been anywhere near his prime. He got his first league assist (0 goals so far) just the other week in the 8-0 win over Cordoba. MSN is blitzing teams. Rakitic is probably their best midfielder right now, even though he is more direct and less like the traditional Barca midfielder. He doesn't dribble or pass as much as he used to either. I'm not sure if this is how LEnrique wants him to play; but this isn't the same player who'd kill players on the wing with his close control or give slide-rule passes with perfect weight.

A player this good would have won more league titles than he has.

League titles are team achievements. If this was basketball, where 1 individual can have such a significant difference he can turn the worst team into a title contender on his own, that point would be valid.
---

Anyway, just checked up on my cousin's point. United would have had to lost 2-1 in that City game for the goal difference not to go against them. I also saw that if that was the case they'd have the same goal difference, goals scored and conceded. If I've Googled properly; does that mean a share title?

 

[GIMH]

Play off @ Wembley I believe

 

[Furball]

Drivel and you know it. Pretty much any club would have had him.



Poor reasoning and logic. You're better than this.

A player as good as the player that Ikki has painted a picture of would have single handedly won league titles. It's not like Gerrard was sorrounded by numpties at Liverpool either, he had Mascherano and Alonso alongside him in the late 00s, Reina in goals and Torres up front. Put Superman Stevie in and that side is more than good enough to win titles. Gerrard has never won titles because he and Liverpool haven't been consistent enough over the course of a season. It's why I'd take Lampard over Gerrard. Gerrard gives you higher highs but Lampard gets the job done st Stoke on a wet Wednesday night better, and that's your meat and drink that wins titles.

I also think Gerrard's great individual performances are overstated as well. Istanbul - a 10 minute period where his contribution amounted to a header, geeing the crowd up, and diving for a penalty which he then bottled out of taking. Liverpool spent the first 45 minutes being outclassed to a degree I don't think I've ever seen in a European final and they owed a lot to Jerzy Dudek for even getting to penalties, even after their 10 minute comeback that owed as much to utterly ****e goalkeeping from Dida as much as it did to any Gerrard magic.

You want a great individual performance almost single handedly dragging his team to a win? Roy Keane. Stadio Delle Alpi. April 1999.

 

[harsh.ag]

Ballsy by Ronaldo to go down the middle on that one.

 

[GIMH]

Lampard is so much better than Gerrard that no manager who ever had access to both agreed and Mourinho tried to sign Gerrard. See how many titles Lampard would have won had Gerrard made the jump in 04, 05, 06. He'd have been saying hello subs bench.

The denigration of Gerrard's Istanbul performance is somewhat facile but I do agree that others contributions are diminished in that.

Ask yourself this. Liverpool fans who have been watching them for generations and seen titles galore, five European cups, countless other trophies and then suffered 25 years of mediocrity still regard Gerrard as a better player than those who were part of the glory sides. And forget giving me a generic 'lol liverpool fans' reply because you know the type I talk of. These people know their football however you try and paint it.

Football is too much of a team sport for one player alone to ever take a team to the title. Otherwise they'd have walked it last year when Suarez outclassed the rest of the league and then some. Gerrard was never part of the best team but you know full well he could have chosen to be. He traded guaranteed success for steering that ship. End of.

 

[Ikki]

A player as good as the player that Ikki has painted a picture of would have single handedly won league titles. It's not like Gerrard was sorrounded by numpties at Liverpool either, he had Mascherano and Alonso alongside him in the late 00s, Reina in goals and Torres up front. Put Superman Stevie in and that side is more than good enough to win titles. Gerrard has never won titles because he and Liverpool haven't been consistent enough over the course of a season. It's why I'd take Lampard over Gerrard. Gerrard gives you higher highs but Lampard gets the job done st Stoke on a wet Wednesday night better, and that's your meat and drink that wins titles.

I also think Gerrard's great individual performances are overstated as well. Istanbul - a 10 minute period where his contribution amounted to a header, geeing the crowd up, and diving for a penalty which he then bottled out of taking. Liverpool spent the first 45 minutes being outclassed to a degree I don't think I've ever seen in a European final and they owed a lot to Jerzy Dudek for even getting to penalties, even after their 10 minute comeback that owed as much to utterly ****e goalkeeping from Dida as much as it did to any Gerrard magic.

You want a great individual performance almost single handedly dragging his team to a win? Roy Keane. Stadio Delle Alpi. April 1999.

No player has ever single-handedly won a league title. Knockout competitions can reflect the influence of a player more because it doesn't require the same consistency and has smaller games but over a season it's virtually impossible. Even the oft-cited Maradona at Napoli had a very good team. Yet even that Maradona never won the European cup.

That midfield trio you name were only really good for 1 season. Mascherano was always pretty good/great, so was Gerrard for that time but Alonso only had 1 great season with them. There is a lot of revisionism about him. Alonso had a great first and last season. In between he got injured several times and was very mixed - which is why Benitez put him on the market; and why no one offered more than 12m from Juve.

Torres, another one. First season was great but was a sicknote for the 08-09 season (the one we actually challenge). He missed about a 3rd of the season and half the time he was fit a significant period of it Gerrard was injured.

Lampard is a great player; I don't want to take much away from him; but he isn't half the match-winner Gerrard is. Lampard's noted for his goals and assists and Gerrard isn't far behind - and unlike Lampard wasn't playing for team built with half a billion dollars and was routinely played all over the place. And you're talking about Gerrard here... the only player to ever score in the league cup final, the FA cup final, the UEFA/Europa cup final and the Champions league final. He could have a top 10 of last gasp match-winners alone.

Your Istanbul recall is shocking. Listen, Liverpool was lucky to even be in that final. It was Gerrard, Benitez and his defensive plans that got us there. We were always going to be outclassed - that AC Milan team was dynastic; it was an all-time great team; it got to 3 CL finals and won 2. The first half was badly set up by Benitez though - while the midfield 4 worked for most of that tournament, Gerrard at that time wasn't as positionally disciplined and Xabi was never a player to be the sole holder. But it's the 2nd half where he turned into Superman. He plays up front, gets the goal, wins the penalty and fills in for the injuries for the rest of the game as we cling for penalties. For a good chunk of the game he played right-back. There are two finals most fans will never, ever, forget and that is Istanbul and the FA cup final...that's because of Gerrard. Even trying to downplay that just shows you seem to have a personal dislike of the guy. Dudek more important than Gerrard?

Roy Keane's performance against Juve is greater than Istanbul? Are you ****ting me? It's not even greater than Gerrard's performance against Olympiacos in the group stages.

Gerrard has only ever had 3 seasons where he has had good enough talent around him to challenge, and all 3 times he came 2nd. I mean, if we had won it last season it would have been one of the footballing miracles. No team has finished lower than 3rd and won it the season after. We were 7th and went into the last game still with a chance.

Lampard is so much better than Gerrard that no manager who ever had access to both agreed and Mourinho tried to sign Gerrard. See how many titles Lampard would have won had Gerrard made the jump in 04, 05, 06. He'd have been saying hello subs bench.

The denigration of Gerrard's Istanbul performance is somewhat facile but I do agree that others contributions are diminished in that.

Ask yourself this. Liverpool fans who have been watching them for generations and seen titles galore, five European cups, countless other trophies and then suffered 25 years of mediocrity still regard Gerrard as a better player than those who were part of the glory sides. And forget giving me a generic 'lol liverpool fans' reply because you know the type I talk of. These people know their football however you try and paint it.

Football is too much of a team sport for one player alone to ever take a team to the title. Otherwise they'd have walked it last year when Suarez outclassed the rest of the league and then some. Gerrard was never part of the best team but you know full well he could have chosen to be. He traded guaranteed success for steering that ship. End of.

Yeah, exactly. Liverpool fans aren't short of heroes to worship. Those sides, especially the ones Dalglish played in, won everything in the kind of fashion Barca have done in this past generation. And at the absolute worst, amongst Liverpool fans in general, Gerrard would come 2nd after King Kenny. I think nowadays he's basically considered the greatest.

United, Real and Chelsea came after him several times (others too, but these are well documented) and any of those clubs would have won even more with him.

This is a guy who has 8 PFA team of the year selections - the most in the EPL era - and he got his first in 2000-01 and his last in 2013-14. He won the PFA Player of the year (runner up in 09 as well, when they decided to give Giggs his life-time achievement award); FWA Player of the year; PFA Young player of the year; Ballon d'Or Bronze (robbed). Even last season, he was again nominated for the PFA Player of the year award at 34. Heck, he has even won the most Premier League Player of the Month awards. And he won these awards playing as a defensive box to box midfielder; a central midfielder; a deep-lying playmaker; a wide midfielder; an attacking midfielder/supporting striker. I'm a Liverpool fan, I'm ****ing biased...but how can you even argue this ****? Most complete player ever.

Imagine what this **** could have done if he took the easy way out.

 

[harsh.ag]

Also think Gerrard would have become a better player had he moved to a better club playing with better players.

 

[Uppercut]

Lampard is so much better than Gerrard that no manager who ever had access to both agreed and Mourinho tried to sign Gerrard. See how many titles Lampard would have won had Gerrard made the jump in 04, 05, 06. He'd have been saying hello subs bench.

Not sure if you're just counter-trolling here but Gerrard was being signed to shuttle between Lampard and Makelele. That's why they signed Essien instead when Gerrard stayed put.

 

[GIMH]

Not sure if you're just counter-trolling here but Gerrard was being signed to shuttle between Lampard and Makelele. That's why they signed Essien instead when Gerrard stayed put.

Yeah I kinda was and I read Mourinho saying he could have fit both in the side and when I read it I heard Grecian crying. You know who Mourinho would have chosen of the two if he had to though; the same choice any manager would have made.

 

[Furball]

Roy Keane's performance against Juve is greater than Istanbul? Are you ****ting me? It's not even greater than Gerrard's performance against Olympiacos in the group stages.

In a post full of complete drivel the above stood out as a particular highlight. Kudos.

 

[Ikki]

In a post full of complete drivel the above stood out as a particular highlight. Kudos.

it's funny how that's such a stand-out game for you (it is in general, I don't disagree with you naming it) but do you realise that Gerrard's whole career has more or less been having to have those kinds of performances?

 

[Ikki]

As much as I don't want Real Madrid repeating; a Barca-Real final would be epic.

 

[harsh.ag]

Bale missing a great chance..

 

[Ikki]

Juve through. Buffon, what a legend. Won't mind the winner now; Suarez's Barca or Pirlo/Buffon/Marchisio's Juve.