***Official*** England in West Indies 2015

[Fuller Pilch]

As opposed to yours and a few others' irrational hatred for him.

Every other country can see what a massive player Stokes could be. Yet in England the haters are out in force because he's a grumpy ginger northerner. The only thing stopping him from becoming England's most important player is the bit between his ears and the English ****wit brigade who're too busy pissing him about and attacking him for no particular reason.

How many all-rounders could play as well as he did in the Ashes, bowl consistently at 90mph with decent control and have to put up with this ****e from the press and the 'supporters'.

He's not even 24 yet. Stokes is the only way England will get above mediocrity in the next 5 years. So we may as well back him, give him the responsibility and criticise him if he does something stupid or doesn't try hard enough. He's our only hope. For an all-rounder starting out in Test cricket he's done fine. Most start off inauspiciously and it just clicks for them.

Meanwhile the England captain is whining about the new chairman calling a mediocre West Indies side mediocre. Bloody hell. England needs to wake up and get on with the clear out.

At least there is one NZ cricketer that you rate. I hope Stokes enjoyed the league win against Australia

 

[Pothas]

I wish Stokes was just a bit better or a bit worse then we would know what to do about him. As it is I have absolutely no idea.

 

[harsh.ag]

You ruin your own case for him by pointing out he has nothing between the ears, until he sorts that out he is a liability. He got wound up and comprehensively lost the battle with Samuels and if you think backing a guy who since the ashes averages 22 with the bat and 48 with the ball then you have to admit you just have bias towards him as plays for your county. Those stats are awful and sum up how he has played for the last year.

Just 5 tests though. He is clearly a better batsman than Woakes, and a worse bowler. Would think that was a better choice as fourth seamer.

 

[Pratters]

I think all the talk of balance is actually concealing the real point of difference in opinions here which is the quality of Moeen's bowling.

The pro commentators in particular are quick to call him "not a specialist spinner" but I think this is very much just a euphemism for "not a good spinner" in their eyes, doing their best to avoid offending him by painting a picture of the fault lying with the team balance and not his bowling. I think they're wrong, but it's annoyingly difficult to actually mount a case against it when they're so unclear about what they mean.

Whether he's a specialist isn't the point. Flintoff wasn't a specialist bowler and he for much of his career he wouldn't have made the side on batting alone, but if England wanted to strengthen the batting they wouldn't have left him out; they'd have left out Ashley Giles, Saj Mahmood or whoever else was the weakest third specialist seamer at the time, because he was a better bowler than them.

Specialisation is a red herring. Some people on CW think Moeen's bowling is good, and some think it isn't. This is the debate we should be having, preferably through comparing him to the other spin options.

Moeen's bowling is fine. However, he is no where as good as say a Herath or a Swann. So having him bowl as the main spinner on a spinning track - I don't think he is good enough for that. When England earlier had Flintoff, Hoggard, Harmison, Anderson and Giles as the main 5 bowlers. Now, they have 4 pacers including Stokes, Ali and Root as the 6th option. This is fine for English track where there is little spin on offer. For subcontinental wickets, or more spin friendly ones, you need another spinner in there. Else, they will have a bit of a problem on spin friendly tracks.

 

[Pratters]

Stokes has talent and adds so much balance to the side. He has to be there. I hope he can stop being such an idiot at times though.

 

[cnerd123]

Problem is Pratters, there is no one better than Moeen. And 2 spinners for the sake of 2 spinners is usually never a good idea.

 

[WindieWeathers]

All the more reason to enjoy him while he's here. They go to Australia to June and who knows how long it will be after that till they win another Test?

SMH if you're gonna have a dig at least get your facts and sentences right

 

[WindieWeathers]

Did I just read Johnson bloody Charles get suggested?

The weather is fair in Brazil

A certain moderator has made a habit out of banning me for "trolling". So i hope said mod is looking at these posts aimed in my direction and will act accordingly too!!...lets see..

 

[harsh.ag]

There is one thing that can be said about Adil Rashid. A look at their FC records puts across something interesting. While they have played nearly the same number of games, Rashid has bowled nearly twice the number of deliveries as has Ali. This has then translated in him taking a few more than double the wickets at a slightly better average and strike rate. I guess that's what most people mean when they say things like "frontline" or "specialist" spinner - one whose performance is as effective when taking on a lot more load of overs.

Ali has more to prove on that parameter I guess. And Rashid is no mug with the bat (has 9 hundreds and 29 50s), while obviously not as good as Ali.

 

[WindieWeathers]

Did you bother to read the rest of my post? Or any of my posts in this thread?

I've been championing Holder, Roach, Taylor, Blackwood and Brathwaite the whole time.

YOU said this Hendrix

Yes they're a mediocre team but there are some good players and they're at home.

Was i lying? stop making excuses please the facts are there in black and white no matter how many of my detractors want to tell you otherwise .

Furthermore "mediocre sides" don't beat the third ranked side and draw a series with them IMO. For ages we've been hampered by injuries, no head coach, the IPL stealing our players etc but finally we're starting to form a core base of decent players and the result was there for all to see yesterday.

 

[WindieWeathers]

Just to clarify, I was referring to Leon Johnson rather than Johnson Charles when I suggested "Johnson".

WW did suggest Johnson Charles though. He did manage to score his first FC hundred and finally get his average over 20 in December, so he's improving..

LOL i'm not saying the lad is a superstar Prince but we're just desperate for an opener who can give us a good start and if Charles can give us a quick 30/40 runs every two or three innings then i'd take that right now tbh. Yes his fc average isn't impressive but it was around 15 not long ago . He's certainly a work in progress but he's got bags of experience when it comes to facing top bowlers around the world so why not?

The other options are

Theophile from Winwards who is Devon Smiths opening partner

Chandrika from Guyana who is up and down but at least has A-team experience

Elvin Lewis is a talent from Trinidad but he didn't have the best of seasons this year

Jon Campbell from Jamaica is another decent talent but it's too soon for him

It's really a shame that Barath has gone off the rails so much as this would have been the perfect opportunity to get back onto the international stage. The problem is he didn't play a single first class game for Trinidad this season just gone...same as Powell basically.

 

[Pothas]

Why are we still talking about Moeen, and not that England got bowled out for 123?

 

[OverratedSanity]

West Indies are a mediocre team, WW. There's nothing really insulting about that. They're a team with lots of talented youngsters but most of them also aren't truly established at test level. In fact, apart from SA, (and maybe Aus) literally every team right now is full of inexperienced players in their lineup. WI, India, Pakistan, SL, England are all pretty mediocre sides because of this... NZ are an exception because many of their youngsters have matured in the last year or so. In the coming 1-2 years I'm sure the rest of those teams will also become decent to good teams depending on how their rookies find their feet and develop.

Till that time, we're all in the same big boat of mediocrity.

 

[WindieWeathers]

Why are we still talking about Moeen, and not that England got bowled out for 123?

Because some people don't want to give WI credit maybe? i sense a lot of bitterness after this win.

 

[Jono]

Why are we still talking about Moeen, and not that England got bowled out for 123?

Haha yeah Its unbelievable isn't it?

People need to look at this **** batting lineup.

 

[OverratedSanity]

Why are we still talking about Moeen, and not that England got bowled out for 123?

Everyone's stupid, that's why. The beard was honestly the least of England's worries. Brainfart batting is what lost the match.

 

[OverratedSanity]

Because some people don't want to give WI credit maybe? i sense a lot of bitterness after this win.

How is that bitterness? Moeen and England's batting were the two big weaknesses in the match and talking about either of them takes nothing away from WI.

people are just talking about the far lesser of the two problem though.

 

[harsh.ag]

Why are we still talking about Moeen, and not that England got bowled out for 123?

For one because England's batting line up is not changing any time soon (apart from Trott), and two because, there is a capable replacement in the form of Adil Rashid when it comes to Ali, who looked mediocre on a pitch where Permaul looked quite dangerous, and even Samuels looked okay.

Edit: Didn't see the Windies innings yesterday, so going by the scorecard for that one.

 

[WindieWeathers]

West Indies are a mediocre team, WW. There's nothing really insulting about that. They're a team with lots of talented youngsters but most of them also aren't truly established at test level. In fact, apart from SA, (and maybe Aus) literally every team right now is full of inexperienced players in their lineup. WI, India, Pakistan, SL, England are all pretty mediocre sides because of this... NZ are an exception because many of their youngsters have matured in the last year or so. In the coming 1-2 years I'm sure the rest of those teams will also become decent to good teams depending on how their rookies find their feet and develop.

Till that time, we're all in the same big boat of mediocrity.

Thanks for putting together an argument without the usual digs others are trying to put forth. Personally i wouldn't say the likes of India are "mediocre" while NZ aren't because quite frankly do you think NZ could go to india and win? No chance imo. To me there are top teams i.e SA and Aus , decent teams England, India, NZ and SL, average teams Pak and WI, and lastly poor sides Zim and Bang. I really don't see the need to call sides "mediocre" tbh.

 

[OverratedSanity]

For one because England's batting line up is not changing any time soon (apart from Trott), and two because, there is a capable replacement in the form of Adil Rashid when it comes to Ali, who looked mediocre on a pitch where Permaul looked quite dangerous, and even Samuels looked okay.

But it's not what cost England the match. At all. Literally everyone agrees the 39-5 collapse is what made the difference.