***Official*** England in West Indies 2015

[Cabinet96]

Erm, what?

If Moeen wasn't the best spinner in the country he wouldn't be playing. Full stop. His batting is the bonus, not the other way round.

 

[mightymariner]

Would like to see Plunkett in so I never have to see Jordan bowl again. Shame we don't do specialist fielders

 

[Lillian Thomson]

This is the longest interview I've seen with Peter Moore's and he's an irritating, clueless Wally.

 

[marc71178]

Would like to see Plunkett in so I never have to see Jordan bowl again. Shame we don't do specialist fielders

We did under Duncan...

 

[Gnske]

If Moeen wasn't the best spinner in the country he wouldn't be playing. Full stop. His batting is the bonus, not the other way round.

I hope this is a sarcastic post and not one that genuinely implies placement in a National Team means you are automatically the best at what you do regardless of your actual ability.

 

[Pratters]

Moeen Ali has 5 5 wicket hauls. Adil Rashid has 17 5 wicket hauls. In the same number of first class games, Rashid has double the FC wickets. No way Moeen is the best spinner in the country. There is a difference between a player who bowls well and a full time spinner.

 

[Prince EWS]

As long as Moeen knows he is le spinner, there's no point really. Still going to bowl as much wherever he bats so if he's more likened to batting above Buttler or whoever's keeping that's that he should do. Or we could just pick someone else who can't bat so it's clear to everyone that we play a proper spinner without comments every time he comes on to bowl.

Yeah deep down I think I only want something like that to happen to stop people complaining about him not being a specialist spinner.

I'm a specialist spinner. Moeen is a better bowler than me. The fact that he can bat does not automatically mean there are better spinners than him to pick. If Moeen didn't bowl very well and I was the next best option, it wouldn't be a good idea to drop him for me on the sole basis of me being a specialist. Now obviously the next best actual specialist options - Riley, Kerrigan, Tredwell, Panesar - are much better than I am, but the principle still applies; the fact that Moeen can bat does make him a worse option as a Test spinner.

I think it's fair to say in hindsight that given how out of rhythm he was and the fact that there was a lot in the pitch, someone like Tredwell who just accurately sends the ball down with only a bit on it could've been more effective in this Test. I don't think that's true in a wider context looking forward though, taking into account that the pitch won't turn the ball for you in most situations, and the fact that Moeen will usually bowl much better than he has in this series.

 

[Cabinet96]

I hope this is a sarcastic post and not one that genuinely implies placement in a National Team means you are automatically the best at what you do regardless of your actual ability.

Why does it have to be one of the two? Maybe you've seen heaps of the spinners in country cricket and know better than me?

 

[Pratters]

Hooper was a better spinner than many bowlers in the Windies in the 90s. Didn't make him a specialist spinner. Similarly, Kallis wasn't a specialist seamer. They did a great job for you and were terrific at times. There is a category between a part time bowler and a specialist bowler, and Moeen would fall into that too.

 

[Spark]

amazed that people aren't getting cribb's point here, it's not very complicated

 

[mightymariner]

Moeen Ali has 5 5 wicket hauls. Adil Rashid has 17 5 wicket hauls. In the same number of first class games, Rashid has double the FC wickets. No way Moeen is the best spinner in the country. There is a difference between a player who bowls well and a full time spinner.

Geoff Boycott has 22 test tons but that doesn't mean he's a better batsman than me. Also looking at the stats, Rashid has bowled like twice the overs of Moeen. I think you also forget that the sole purpose of a spinner isn't really to take wickets ffs

 

[Prince EWS]

Hooper was a better spinner than many bowlers in the Windies in the 90s. Didn't make him a specialist spinner.

No it didnt - because he could bat. What it did mean is that you'd rather have Hooper bowling than bowlers who were were than Hooper. (Incidentally I think Moeen is or at least can be much better than Hooper as a bowler). If you'd rather have worse bowlers bowling to satisfy your labelist view of cricket then go ahead; I'm sure my side will beat yours.

The issue with Kallis was largely one of workload; having someone bat four and bowl twenty overs a day of fast-medium stuff is way too much to ask, and if he bowled too much it could have affected his batting.. something that would have been disastrous given his quality. Where Moeen is different from Kallis (aside from the fact that batting six and bowling spin are both less energy-intensive than batting four and bowling fast; and the fact that South Africa had lots of good quality fast bowlers to pick from and England have.. Tredwell) is that he absolutely wouldn't be playing if he couldn't bowl. He's in the side as much if not more as a spin option than he is a batsman, so if bowling lots affects his batting then it's not a large concern.

 

[Gnske]

Why does it have to be one of the two? Maybe you've seen heaps of the spinners in country cricket and know better than me?

Yes I do because I'm a cricketing buff who has seen things and recalled stats you wouldn't believe bucko. Moeen had one good day out last summer and ever since he's been treated like he's more than what he is because of a gimmicky haul and some orgasmic strokes to boot.

Regardless, you implied that just because a player is playing in a national squad he's automatically the best at his role (Buttler, Jordan, Stokes, Trott i'm looking at you). The only reason I even responded is because I don't like it when people try to out-do me in the dreadful posting arena.

 

[Pratters]

This is a poor result for England and a much needed one for Windies. I don't think England will be pushovers at home though v the Kiwis., embarrassing as drawing the series was. The English bowlers are going to bowl better in English conditions, and the batsmen will bat better hopefully for them.

This series helps show a bit regarding the batting line up. Trott shouldn't be an automatic selection for the home series. Cook went towards the ball and across the wicket a lot. He meddled a lot of deliveries outside off. This is okay on slower wickets but he cannot keep doing this in England as much as he did here.

I am not sure why Jordan keeps getting picked, like many here. Bowls all over the place and isn't very good right now. I liked how Broad improved by bowling a bit fuller. He will have to play an important role over the summer as Anderson can't be expected to keep taking all the load forever. Stoke being there is a big positive in this regard. An extra seamer in the bowling attack is such a big help for every one else.

 

[Cabinet96]

Rashid is an erratic leg spinner who bats in the top 7 ffs. Even aside from Cribb's correct point, it's ridiculous to talk about Moeen not being a specialist and then reference him as a suitable alternative.

 

[Cabinet96]

Yes I do because I'm a cricketing buff who has seen things and recalled stats you wouldn't believe bucko. Moeen had one good day out last summer and ever since he's been treated like he's more than what he is because of a gimmicky haul and some orgasmic strokes to boot.

Regardless, you implied that just because a player is playing in a national squad he's automatically the best. The only reason I even responded is because I don't like it when people try to out-do me in the dreadful posting arena.

I think I get where you're misunderstanding my point. The point about how they wouldn't select him if he wasn't the best wasn't meant to imply that they know 100%, and that therefore them selecting him means he's definitely the best. The point was that it's not his batting that is getting him selected, it's the fact they consider him to be better, or at least not worse, than all the other spinners. I'm inclined to agree from what I've seen/scorecards I've read.

 

[Pratters]

No it didnt - because he could bat. What it did mean is that you'd rather have Hooper bowling than bowlers who were were than Hooper. (Incidentally I think Moeen is or at least can be much better than Hooper as a bowler). If you'd rather have worse bowlers bowling to satisfy your labelist view of cricket then go ahead; I'm sure my side will beat yours.

The issue with Kallis was largely one of workload; having someone bat four and bowl twenty overs a day of fast-medium stuff is way too much to ask, and if he bowled too much it could have affected his batting.. something that would have been disastrous given his quality. Where Moeen is different from Kallis (aside from the fact that batting six and bowling spin are both less energy-intensive than batting four and bowling fast; and the fact that South Africa had lots of good quality fast bowlers to pick from and England have.. Tredwell) is that he absolutely wouldn't be playing if he couldn't bowl. He's in the side as much if not more as a spin option than he is a batsman, so if bowling lots affects his batting then it's not a large concern.

As they are not specialist bowlers, there is always a concern regarding the workload. Theoretically, they might be able to play the role of the specialist bowler. However, they have never really done so for a long length of matches in their career. To do it is a big step up, even if you balance out the work loads. Not many actually manage this.

I agree that Moeen wouldn't be in the side if he couldn't bowl. However, to have him as the main spinner in pitches where you need a spinner to take wickets isn't going to work too well, I would wager, regardless of the lack of form of Moeen with his bowling in this series. It's just too much responsibility in a role he hasn't played in his career so far - the main spinner in spin friendly conditions.

 

[NZTailender]

This series has been a 'wake up and check the status' in terms of following. Yesterday morning I was excited to see the position the game was in and hoped the WIndies would pull off an unlikely victory (I had pessimistically expected England's LO to produce 200 or so runs and shoot WI out for under 200). Gave a little fist pump when I saw the scorecard the morning! Can't underestimate the WIndies at home - and they didn't even have Roach or Gayle!

 

[marc71178]

Moeen Ali has 5 5 wicket hauls. Adil Rashid has 17 5 wicket hauls. In the same number of first class games, Rashid has double the FC wickets. No way Moeen is the best spinner in the country. There is a difference between a player who bowls well and a full time spinner.

Rashid of course being neither of those 2 things if Moeen isn't.

 

[Pothas]

Moeen Ali has 5 5 wicket hauls. Adil Rashid has 17 5 wicket hauls. In the same number of first class games, Rashid has double the FC wickets. No way Moeen is the best spinner in the country. There is a difference between a player who bowls well and a full time spinner.

Nah **** off.