New Zealand doom and gloom thread

[OverratedSanity]

I know you've never be a fan of NZ Francis, and I get that, but the hypothetical argument that SA would have performed better when all the data points the other way is desperate at best.

 

[Zinzan]

Lol, the only difference is I'd already looked at the data

 

[Xuhaib]

New Zealand has had it's fun. They can now go back to punching above their weight and winning spirit of cricket awards.

yeah i love the current black caps side but I do feel they will fall away once they lose McCullam or he goes back to his inconsistent self like he was couple of years back. Boult and Kane are the only two guys that can match the skills levels of great players from other big teams among the rest Southee, Taylor and Watling are borderline world world class and would remain so rest are quite unproven if Milne, Henry, Neesham, Corey and Latham live up their early promise then yes they can be heck of a team but knowing NZ history I would back atleast 3-4 of then to flatter to deceive or loose themselves to injuries.

 

[Xuhaib]

I think over the next few years NZ will be in tier 2 along side England and comfortably below Aus, Sa and India

 

[Zinzan]

I think over the next few years NZ will be in tier 2 along side England and comfortably below Aus, Sa and India

You talking all forms or specifically ODIs?

 

[Xuhaib]

You talking all forms or specifically ODIs?

yeah all forms

 

[OverratedSanity]

NZ are genuinely excellent now and I see no reason for it to change. They've got a magnificent pace battery in Southee, Boult, Milne, Henry, who should all frankly hit their peak at various points over the next five years, and KW and Latham are obviously going to be their batting mainstays over the next few years. They're all very young so there's not much logic behind saying they'll decline apart from just pessimism.

Edit: Also Corey and Neesham too. They probably do need another couple of solid top order batsmen though.

 

[Zinzan]

yeah all forms

Not sure that's all that logical given NZ test cricket has arguably been on the rise more than their short-form stuff of late.

I think we all agree Australian cricket looks very strong again, although let's not forget they were at home in the WC and NZ were far more impressive in their away series against Pakistan than Australia were. That aside, I'm happy to agree Australia look to be one of the top teams.

I'm not so sure how you give SA & India a pass though, and not NZ. I mean India have been dreadful in Test cricket and have slipped right down the ratings. For SA, the likes of Steyn won't be around for ever, and I'm not convinced he's the bowler he was 3-4 years ago.

It really does seem like a knee-jerk reaction when only really McCullum is likely to retire soon, and while KW won't be quite as aggressive as a skipper, I do think he'll be a very strong one. But most of the talent in NZ are youngish players likely to get better.

Not sure you really put much thought into that post tbh Xuhaib, rather than talking down NZ based on one limp performance and not looking at the bigger picture of where this team is placed across all forms in the medium term.

 

[Antihippy]

Coriander Sun will be a major force in world cricket soon, I feel. Plus he'll only be 28 when the next cup rolls around. Plenty of positives for NZ from this tournament I feel.

 

[OverratedSanity]

I'm not so sure how you give SA & India a pass though, and not NZ. I mean India have been dreadful in Test cricket and have slipped right down the ratings. For SA, the likes of Steyn won't be around for ever, and I'm not convinced he's the bowler he was 3-4 years ago.

THE MIGHTY India will be back. We just had to face the unfortunate reality of playing literally a whole year away from home to some of the strongest test teams in the world. Back to back tours to SA, NZ, England and Australia is downright brutal and our ranking reflects a team of youngsters thrown into the deep end. We've been rubbish but at the same time, our batting looks frankly brilliant for the future. Just wish we had even one decent bowler though

 

[Zinzan]

THE MIGHTY India will be back. We just had to face the unfortunate reality of playing literally a whole year away from home to some of the strongest test teams in the world. Back to back tours to SA, NZ, England and Australia is downright brutal and our ranking reflects a team of youngsters thrown into the deep end. We've been rubbish but at the same time, our batting looks frankly brilliant for the future. Just wish we had even one decent bowler though

Yeah, my point wasn't to knock India. I'm just not sure how Xuhaib figures India and SA join Australia in the top tier & the rest will sit a tier below given the cricket we've seen from all sides in the last 12-18 months. His rationale sounded weak and very knee-jerky due to the timing.

 

[OverratedSanity]

Yeah in tests we're nowhere near the top tier. Or maybe Xuhaib means tier as in the ICC multi tier system.?

England will have to drop down because of how rubbish they are obviously.

 

[Flem274*]

New Zealand and India have the advantage of having most of their best players being quite young. The only way is up. Other sides are about to have huge gaping holes. Even Australia, though Warner and Smith are two excellent blokes to cover it and Marsh is a talent.

It all depends on New Zealand producing more Watlings' in the batting department though if no prodigies emerge.

I will say this though - the likely post Baz leadership group of Williamson, Latham, Watling (he'll get in there) and Southee is a good core to have and if Williamson's New Zealand reflect his own qualities, we're set.

 

[wellAlbidarned]

90% of the discussion on a forum is speculation and hypothesis anyway. Not every statement ever being posted is going to be backed up by iron clad empirical evidence. Don't see why there are so many butthurt at the belief that SA would have made better finalists, albeit with the benefit of hindsight.

If you're speculating about a game which is actually going to happen/is happening your claim can be either vindicated or blown out of the water, which is most of what happens on this site (aside from ****ty ATG threads). Speculating on something which isn't going to happen is literally pointless.

Also if you wish to be taken seriously outside of reddit and 9gag you should probably avoid using the word "butthurt". Stupid term used by people who can't cope with people disagreeing with them.

 

[Flem274*]

All these scavengers thinking it's safe to eat is so good.

Feast on the tears guys. It appears that now even when we lose we get bites.

 

[vic_orthdox]

Yeah, my point wasn't to knock India. I'm just not sure how Xuhaib figures India and SA join Australia in the top tier & the rest will sit a tier below given the cricket we've seen from all sides in the last 12-18 months. His rationale sounded weak and very knee-jerky due to the timing.

That India reorganised themselves in this World Cup, after their tour of Australia and with the schedule outlined by OS above, there are some good signs there.

Don't know if anyone will be beating them at home over the next few years; on that alone I think they deserve to be placed in that top tier.

 

[_Ed_]

For sure, very impressed with India in this tournament - particularly the bowling, which has come a hell of a long way in a short time. They were so much better than when they toured here only last year.

 

[artvandalay]

If you're speculating about a game which is actually going to happen/is happening your claim can be either vindicated or blown out of the water, which is most of what happens on this site (aside from ****ty ATG threads). Speculating on something which isn't going to happen is literally pointless.

Also if you wish to be taken seriously outside of reddit and 9gag you should probably avoid using the word "butthurt". Stupid term used by people who can't cope with people disagreeing with them.

So there should never be any speculation of what may happen or what didn't happen because it is so pointless that it almost never happens on a forum anyway? From saying you cannot speculate initially, to saying you can only speculate on what you know is going to happen. Make your mind up.

And 'butthurt' is about eloquent enough to describe the thought and opinion police lurking who don't like those opinions that don't align with the commonly accepted one here but thanks for briefing me on appropriate linguistics anyway, don't know what i would do without it.

If SA hadn't lost 3 games, including two in the GS, you might have a ghost of a point, but the fact they were rolled by both the Pakistan and Indian bowling attacks (and the Indian game was an absolute mauling at the MCG itself lost by 130 runs), I'm not sure how you can seriously suggest they would have been up to it against that Australian attack. It's just utterly illogical.

If India rolled them for 177 at the G, what on earth makes you think they would have prospered better against Starc, Johnson & co?

I know you've never be a fan of NZ Francis, and I get that, but the hypothetical argument that SA would have performed better when all the data points the other way is desperate at best.

Well for one Australia and SA have played each other a fair bit over the last 18 months and results have been mixed. Even the series which SA lost a few months ago the games and series in general were more competitive than the scoreline suggests. That and the fact that SA were used to Aussie conditions and playing in front of large crowds, having a batting - which as you guys love saying - with more' cake than icing' doesn't make it outrageous to think they might have made better finalists. Also the 2 games lost thing doesn't wash with me as there have been cases where eventual champions have gone on to win the tournament after losing a game or two in the initial rounds, see Australia in '99. I realize that each world cup format is different but the point still stands. We are talking about just 1 game here and better or worse team is fairly subjective, the match up is of greater essence.

 

[vic_orthdox]

Basically the only argument that SA would be a better match up is relying on AB to have a day out.

 

[Zinzan]

That India reorganised themselves in this World Cup, after their tour of Australia and with the schedule outlined by OS above, there are some good signs there.

Don't know if anyone will be beating them at home over the next few years; on that alone I think they deserve to be placed in that top tier.

If we're talking test cricket, best we wait until they actually starting winning before thrusting them into the top tier. I mean I get they've had some tough away tours of late, but their current Test ranking is still 6th or 7th, so there's nothing obvious to me to suggest they're suddenly going to pull clear of the likes of NZ, Pakistan or even England. If NZ manage to beat England in a couple of months, they could very well move to 3rd in the test rankings. A long way from tier 2 imho.