*Official* English Football Season 2014-15

[sledger]

Players aren't close to being the finished article at 17 and do a lot of development between 18 and 24/25. Walcott spent that entire period of his career at Arsenal and Ox will hopefully do the same. Arsenal will be/are mostly responsible for how they'll turn out as players, it'd be like crediting your school more than your employer for your career development ffs.

Yeha, but by the same measure you could argue that if it wasn't for the precise impact your school had on you, you might not have ended up with that employer at all. Butterfly effect etc...

 

[Pothas]

Oh **** is it an international weekend again? Dire.

To be fair it is not as bad at this time of the season because there is other sport on. Bees could probably do with a rest anyway but it is still a right bore.

 

[GIMH]

Players aren't close to being the finished article at 17 and do a lot of development between 18 and 24/25. Walcott spent that entire period of his career at Arsenal and Ox will hopefully do the same. Arsenal will be/are mostly responsible for how they'll turn out as players, it'd be like crediting your school more than your employer for your career development ffs.

It's not anything like that actually, unless your school teaches you the exact skills you need throughout your career. It's more like me crediting my first full-time employer for a lot of the things I've learned that have helped me to progress with my current employer. Sure, they aren't responsible for the progress I've made since joining but it would be ridiculous to say they had nothing to do with any of it.

Of course Walcott and Ox developed at Arsenal but they aren't products of the Arsenal academy. And to ignore any development done lower down the pyramid is just ignorant of lower league football IMO.

Aaron Cresswell has come on leaps and bounds since leaving TRFC, thanks to Ipswich and now West Ham. Koumas improved as a player at West Brom. Dixie Dean was one of the greatest strikers the country has ever seen once he went to Everton. So what. None of those clubs produced those players, we did.

Buying youth for big fees and improving them as players is all well and good but under zero circumstances should the buying club then be credited with producing a great player. It may be a reflection on their coaching and all that jazz but it is not a player they have brought through.

 

[GIMH]

Actually thats a bit crap really. Surely even a team like Wales can afford to switch it around and release a player like that. Goalie is especially tough to lose, as its unlikely the back up has had much game time.

TBF to Coleman, he is always pretty reasonable. With internationals rarely on Saturdays these days, he always releases Fonners for the Saturday if Wales have been at home on the Friday and he hasn't come on (which he never has, he's yet to debut). When they are away on the Friday though, no such luck. Plus I believe (could be wrong) Fonners is actually second choice rather than third this time out.

But yeah it's frustrating to say the least. Our backup keeper has been on loan at Southport for a month, basically in preparation for this so that he would be match fit, and he's a decent keeper so I'm not overly worried but I'd rather Fonners was there.

Better than how it used to be when we were in what's now the championship. They used to have a full programme but you could postpone a game if you had four call-ups. We often had three. One game we had to play without Aldridge, and he was our player-manager at the time!

 

[Furball]

Of course the buying club deserves credit, for every Ox there's a Jermaine Pennant. Or can we blame that one on Notts County (IIRC) having a **** youth system?

edit: I'm not saying don't give any credit to smaller teams, my post was a reaction to flibberty stating that Ox and Theo were Southampton products as if Arsenal played no role in their development.

 

[cpr]

Players aren't close to being the finished article at 17 and do a lot of development between 18 and 24/25. Walcott spent that entire period of his career at Arsenal and Ox will hopefully do the same. Arsenal will be/are mostly responsible for how they'll turn out as players, it'd be like crediting your school more than your employer for your career development ffs.

TBH I would - there's so many things I learned in school that I've taken into employment. The fact I'm really good at maths came before I started doing Tax work. My ability to write clear reports (I credit my A-Level history teacher for teaching me the art of the perfect concise essay) was what moved me onto writing documents for Tribunal/Adjudication. My ability to stand up in front of a class and do a presentation made me a great trainer. The interpersonal skills from group projects helped make me a suitable manager.

I'd not have got any of those roles if I'd not practised these years before. Sure they have improved, but having such strong building blocks over others who didn't come through such prestigious acadamies as I (ie, you state school plebs) are what rose me above everyone else and helped me stand out.


Shame I work for the employment equivalent of Leeds Utd...... Hey they were good once (alas I got in after the Seth Johnson level wages)

 

[GIMH]

Of course the buying club deserves credit, for every Ox there's a Jermaine Pennant. Or can we blame that one on Notts County (IIRC) having a **** youth system?

edit: I'm not saying don't give any credit to smaller teams, my post was a reaction to flibberty stating that Ox and Theo were Southampton products as if Arsenal played no role in their development.

Pennant is still a product Notts ****y can be proud of though. I think you're being obtuse there

I get what you are saying but they are Southampton products. I'm certainly not saying Arsenal shouldn't get any credit, but their youth system/academy certainly don't get the credit for them.

 

[sledger]

To be fair it is not as bad at this time of the season because there is other sport on. Bees could probably do with a rest anyway but it is still a right bore.

I suppose that is true, but in some ways it's just as bad, for me anyway, as the Premiership is just reaching the most interesting stage of the season, where I'm most inclined to watch.

 

[Pothas]

What are we really arguing over here? We all know both the original club and the one that buys him at a young age are vital. The only area Furball is being ridiculous is banging on about the U12 stuff.

If Lewis Macleod actually exists and becomes Scotland's best player Bees are taking all the credit though.

 

[sledger]

On Jermaine Pennant, his mediocrity can be put down to the fact that he's a complete berk with a terrible attitude and no work ethic. Not really the fault of any club imo.

Can vaguely remember a "I would have been the first Wayne Rooney/Cristiano Ronaldo if Arsene Wenger wasn't such a ****" type rant from him that emerged a few years back.

 

[Pothas]

I suppose that is true, but in some ways it's just as bad, for me anyway, as the Premiership is just reaching the most interesting stage of the season, where I'm most inclined to watch.

Premier league is crap this year, there is almost nothing to left to watch. Even the forced top 4 hype might be forced to be abandoned if Liverpool lose to Arsenal. Sky should just give up and show the Championship for the rest of the season.

 

[Pothas]

On Jermaine Pennant, his mediocrity can be put down to the fact that he's a complete berk with a terrible attitude and no work ethic. Not really the fault of any club imo.

Can vaguely remember a "I would have been the first Wayne Rooney/Cristiano Ronaldo if Arsene Wenger wasn't such a ****" type rant from him that emerged a few years back.

Yeah, think it was Henry. Was on football focus, does that still exist been years since I watched it?

 

[GIMH]

All things considered btw, I much prefer the approach of buying an academy product from another club for large sums, compared to what seems to be the in vogue method of the big clubs of attracting all local talent, having all the decent under 21s and stockpiling them. May have mentioned it before

This needs to be the priority for the FA. Regulating it would actually achieve more or less the same goals as what they want to get out of this absurd B team idea - you put a cap on the amount if players a club can have on their books, and the ones who aren't good enough for Chelsea maybe go to West Ham, or Brentford, or Leyton Orient, or Barnet. And they get games.

The emergency loans system is a joke, I speak as someone who was out the country for 8 weeks of the season and probably missed 6 or 7 loanees passing through at Prenton Park. But if you kill off emergency loans, as FIFA would like to do, then with the current system you are going to cripple lower leagues because the quality youngsters are currently doing a tour of 4 or 5 clubs a season via a string of month loans.

It's no coincidence that as the Prem has got bigger, richer and more powerful, we have seen fewer youth products at Prenton Park, and the ones we have produced aren't as good. The equivalents of your Jason Koumas/Alan Rogers/Ged Brannans of yesteryear are now on loan at ****ing Swindon or somewhere from Liverpool, but they'll never make it at Anfield save maybe a League Cup or Europa League outing. The Prem/European squad rules allow you to not register U22s in your 25 I believe (purely Footy Manager based knowledge so could be wrong) and all in all that is a good thing, but there HAS to be a limit of the amount of players you can have on your books over a certain age. It harms the young players who won't make the cut, it harms the smaller clubs and in the end just serves to make your Chelseas and co more money in small change transfer fees that they just don't need.

Looks like I need to sign off with

#AgainstModernFootball

 

[Furball]

It would be hard to give a justification for restriciting squad size though - cost grounds would be laughable as the negotiating position for TV rights seems to be 'as many zeros as you can fit on the cheque.'

 

[Furball]

If Lewis Macleod actually exists and becomes Scotland's best player Bees are taking all the credit though.

Can't argue with that, can't imagine he's had any worthwhile coaching in the 2 and a half years he was in our first team setup.

 

[GIMH]

It would be hard to give a justification for restriciting squad size though - cost grounds would be laughable as the negotiating position for TV rights seems to be 'as many zeros as you can fit on the cheque.'

The justification is the stifling of young talent. If you're not in the best 25 (arbitary number but seems to fit the way things work) 18-21s at Chelsea, are you ever really going to play for Chelsea? What good is done for anybody by this player being on Chelsea's books. Sure, they loan out lots of players (30+ I believe) but there's no stability for the player, they get mixed messages through the different coaching they receive throughout the season.

I mean it won't happen but it doesn't mean it should. I honestly see no downside whatsoever to it.

 

[Pothas]

The short term loans are awful, can't see how it really does a player any good. Long term loans can be of huge benefit for a player but as we have discussed before there is usually still not going to be a spot for them when they return. Would be so much better for them to move club permanently.

There are still cases where it will work, I am fairly sure Pritchard will be at least around the Spurs squad next season but these are exceptions even with players on loan at good Championship clubs. I mean does anyone think Bamford is ever going to play regularly for Chelsea?

 

[Furball]

The justification is the stifling of young talent. If you're not in the best 25 (arbitary number but seems to fit the way things work) 18-21s at Chelsea, are you ever really going to play for Chelsea? What good is done for anybody by this player being on Chelsea's books. Sure, they loan out lots of players (30+ I believe) but there's no stability for the player, they get mixed messages through the different coaching they receive throughout the season.

I mean it won't happen but it doesn't mean it should. I honestly see no downside whatsoever to it.

I suppose the counter argument would be that (in theory) he should receive better coaching in his initial years at Chelsea and will earn more money there.

It's not ideal but lart of being a successful sportsman is arrogance and belief in yourself. And when you're a young kid who's talented, your ego will be fed by your peers etc. Be honest, if you were a hot shot 15 year old footballer and you had a choice of Chelsea or Leyton Orient, you're going to try and make it at Chelsea aren't you?

 

[GIMH]

Of course you are but take the decision out of their hands.

 

[Furball]

Of course you are but take the decision out of their hands.

Are you saying young players shouldn't have a choice who they play for?