Are tons really that impressive in this era?

[Dan]

I agree with everything you're saying here Blocky. The pitches aren't overly testing and runs are being made for fun. I'm happier about Smitteh not throwing away starts, rather than using his 700 runs as proof he's Bradman incarnate.

None of that, in and of itself, prevents the hundred Kohli made yesterday from being valuable. That is all I am talking about here.

 

[cnerd123]

That being said, I'll conceed Smith is being ruthless and determined to keep racking up the runs and not get bored/make mistakes, that's commendable but let's see him play against teams with a bowling attack that has less than 250 wickets between them and also has someone averaging less than 30

The debate isn't whether or not Smith will go on to be an ATG.

The question posed was why do we have so many 100s recently, and it was answered - batsmen at their prime, weak attacks touring abroad, flat pitches.

The debate shifted when WW started to criticise Kohli's recent efforts saying they are unworthy of being considered 'impressive' centuries, which is just plain, flat out wrong.

Somehow we have ended up debating about Smith, when no one disagrees that he has had easy conditions to fill his boots in. It's impressive how he has gone about it, but yes we all agree he probably won't have many easier situations to score runs and that there are several batsmen out there who would have performed just as well in this situation.

But to completely write off these efforts to "crap bowling, flat pitches, bowling all over the place to Kohli, not targeting weakness" is such complete and utter bull**** and I don't get why you would be supporting that.

"Smith scoring runs isn't special because all the Aussies scored runs" is just as stupid when you consider the huge gap between Smith's performance and the rest of the Aussie squad.

 

[Antihippy]

That being said, I'll conceed Smith is being ruthless and determined to keep racking up the runs and not get bored/make mistakes, that's commendable but let's see him play against teams with a bowling attack that has less than 250 wickets between them and also has someone averaging less than 30

See most of 2014.

 

[Noah]

Basin Reserve.

McCullum - 300 last year, shared a world record partnership stand with BJ Watling of 350 odd
Williamson - 242 this year, shared a new world record partnership stand with BJ Watling of 360 odd.

tbh, I think this is partially a case of hindsight bias. In those two Tests we've seen some big records but we've also seen half the innings end in par scores or being skittled for very small totals (356, 221, 196, 192) and in the most recent Test match, you could argue that each innings of the match featured some rather significant batting collapses. Added to which is the fact that both of these record stands began with the match situation at 5/159 and 5/94. I think history would suggest that the Basin Reserve often flattens out to be a decent batting pitch after the first few days but I think you're letting good batting in hindsight influence your opinion of how flat the actual pitch was. There was certainly something in it for the bowlers in each Test and batsmen did struggle badly at times.

But I guess the Basin is probably more batter friendly on the spectrum of wickets around the world. There are always a spread of wickets with some being more batter friendly and some being more bowler friendly.

 

[Blocky]

I think you guys are arguing with WW despite him having left the thread, my argument has predominately been focused on how many more runs were scored by batsmen who just don't score those types of runs usually ( i.e McCullum, Smith, Williamson ) against attacks that are pretty dire and pitches that aren't much better. It's actually worth noting how much Australia struggled in their last series in the UAE against a better bowling attack and conditions that weren't so easy, likewise with NZ struggling there until they adapted.

Smith is one I bring up in particular because previously he's been capable of a century here or there, but just as likely to knick out early. It's still impressive that he's scoring runs at this rate, but I think in lieu of how much grief guys like Sanga get for "always scoring runs against Pakistan and Bangladesh" , it's worth noting that both of their attacks are better than Indias at this point in time, which somewhat devalues the runs being scored here, similar to when Matty Hayden struck 380 to take the world record over against Zimbabwe, no one really wanted to consider it the world record.

I feel the same about Smith breaking Punter's existing record over 4 tests and Kohli having a chance to have broken Gavaskar's.

 

[Blocky]

tbh, I think this is partially a case of hindsight bias. In those two Tests we've seen some big records but we've also seen half the innings end in par scores or being skittled for very small totals (356, 221, 196, 192) and in the most recent Test match, you could argue that each innings of the match featured some rather significant batting collapses. Added to which is the fact that both of these record stands began with the match situation at 5/159 and 5/94. I think history would suggest that the Basin Reserve often flattens out to be a decent batting pitch after the first few days but I think you're letting good batting in hindsight influence your opinion of how flat the actual pitch was. There was certainly something in it for the bowlers in each Test and batsmen did struggle badly at times.

But I guess the Basin is probably more batter friendly on the spectrum of wickets around the world. There are always a spread of wickets with some being more batter friendly and some being more bowler friendly.

The Basin is highly weather dependent, a bright blue sky day will see the ball swing around at which point NZ has the bowlers to make that count. But the pitch itself is so freaking easy to bat on that they have to artificially make it hard for the first innings by leaving a tonne of green grass on it and basically ensuring the first innings will be a cheap dismissal. Once Day 2 ends, you've got the most placid pitch in the world which relies on batting error or the ball swinging.

 

[cnerd123]

Also I hate the logic that says "They broke a record; ergo their opponents must be ****."

Does this apply to every record in century? How about every record to be broken in the future? Do you wait for a player to become an ATG before you say 'huh, I guess its okay now that he holds a record."

Give the player some ****ing credit.

 

[Blocky]

Also I hate the logic that says "They broke a record; ergo their opponents must be ****."

Does this apply to every record in century? How about every record to be broken in the future? Do you wait for a player to become an ATG before you say 'huh, I guess its okay now that he holds a record."

Give the player some ****ing credit.

"Player"

The problem with your argument is that it's not a "player" - it's "players" - i.e Roger's run of 50s breaking a record, Australia's scores over 500+ breaking records, Smith breaking records, Kohli breaking records - The Indian bowlers breaking records - all in the same series.

23 years since an Indian opener faced 250 balls.
Only two Indian batsman ever scoring 4 centuries in a series.
The most centuries from captains in a series.
The most times over 500+ in a series
The most scores of 50+ in a row for an opening batsman in a series
The most runs for an Indian batsman against Australia in a series
Pretty much certain the most runs ever scored by an Australian in a 4 test series
The first time everyone in the Australian top six made a score of 50+ ever
The highest series run-rate over a 4 test series by an Australian team.

It goes on and on and on and on

 

[Noah]

Harris, Johnson looking like actuall all rounders rather than slogging tail enders, etc.

Well in fairness, Johnson has actually flirted with the status of bowling all-rounder for much of his career and Harris has never been a bunny with the bat. They've both managed to get in the top 5 for ICC all-rounder rankings in the past if I recall correctly.

But anyway, you're pretty much right. The Indian bowling to the Australian tail has been laughable.

 

[cnerd123]

I think you guys are arguing with WW despite him having left the thread, my argument has predominately been focused on how many more runs were scored by batsmen who just don't score those types of runs usually ( i.e McCullum, Smith, Williamson ) against attacks that are pretty dire and pitches that aren't much better. It's actually worth noting how much Australia struggled in their last series in the UAE against a better bowling attack and conditions that weren't so easy, likewise with NZ struggling there until they adapted.

Smith is one I bring up in particular because previously he's been capable of a century here or there, but just as likely to knick out early. It's still impressive that he's scoring runs at this rate, but I think in lieu of how much grief guys like Sanga get for "always scoring runs against Pakistan and Bangladesh" , it's worth noting that both of their attacks are better than Indias at this point in time, which somewhat devalues the runs being scored here, similar to when Matty Hayden struck 380 to take the world record over against Zimbabwe, no one really wanted to consider it the world record.

I feel the same about Smith breaking Punter's existing record over 4 tests and Kohli having a chance to have broken Gavaskar's.

Like I said, his first post was a little pithy but you can't exactly say he doesn't have justification or reason to say it.

Virat Kohli just broke a record for most runs scored in a series by an Indian against Australia and is now fourth all time for any series by an Indian. Steve Smith went from an inconsistent, occassionally brilliant batsman to someone scoring centuries every test. Rogers went from not being able to buy a run to not being dismissed for less than 50. The bowling attacks on display as I pointed out above would rate as some of the worst/inexperienced to play test cricket in the last 5 to 10 years for either side and the amount of runs being scored by the teams has also been setting records ( most number of 500+ scores in a row, etc ).

Yea no. You picked up WW's argument about Kohli when he left and attempted to justify it. Don't back away now and try to differentiate your stance from his (wrong) stance.

You either rate Kohli's performance or you don't. Which is it?

 

[Flem274*]

Well if they don't hit all those runs but nick off cheap then the Indian or whoevers attack is good.

And we know that's not the case.

Bad attacks cop lots of hundreds against them. Sometimes good attacks do too when a good player gets on a roll. Sometimes bad attacks win test matches (India in England, Sri Lanka in England).

Smith has proven he is a good player against England, South Africa and Pakistan so now he is smashing a bad attack. Kohli is a good player so he is getting on a roll aganst a good attack right now.

This really isn't hard.

PS your description of the Basin is only true for the last two tests on it.

 

[Blocky]

Yea no. You picked up WW's argument about Kohli when he left and attempted to justify it. Don't back away now and try to differentiate your stance from his (wrong) stance.

You either rate Kohli's performance or you don't. Which is it?

I rate it, I don't rate it "The best performance by an Indian batsman against Australia" though. yet that's how history will record it.

 

[Flem274*]

Johnson is a bowling allrounder and Harris and Starc are very close to that status as well.

 

[cnerd123]

"Player"

The problem with your argument is that it's not a "player" - it's "players" - i.e Roger's run of 50s breaking a record, Australia's scores over 500+ breaking records, Smith breaking records, Kohli breaking records - The Indian bowlers breaking records - all in the same series.

23 years since an Indian opener faced 250 balls.
Only two Indian batsman ever scoring 4 centuries in a series.
The most centuries from captains in a series.
The most times over 500+ in a series
The most scores of 50+ in a row for an opening batsman in a series
The most runs for an Indian batsman against Australia in a series
Pretty much certain the most runs ever scored by an Australian in a 4 test series
The first time everyone in the Australian top six made a score of 50+ ever
The highest series run-rate over a 4 test series by an Australian team.

It goes on and on and on and on

I believe the players deserve credit for the bolded ones. The rest are a result of what has basically been minnow bashing.

 

[Antihippy]

I think you guys are arguing with WW despite him having left the thread, my argument has predominately been focused on how many more runs were scored by batsmen who just don't score those types of runs usually ( i.e McCullum, Smith, Williamson ) against attacks that are pretty dire and pitches that aren't much better. It's actually worth noting how much Australia struggled in their last series in the UAE against a better bowling attack and conditions that weren't so easy, likewise with NZ struggling there until they adapted.

Smith is one I bring up in particular because previously he's been capable of a century here or there, but just as likely to knick out early. It's still impressive that he's scoring runs at this rate, but I think in lieu of how much grief guys like Sanga get for "always scoring runs against Pakistan and Bangladesh" , it's worth noting that both of their attacks are better than Indias at this point in time, which somewhat devalues the runs being scored here, similar to when Matty Hayden struck 380 to take the world record over against Zimbabwe, no one really wanted to consider it the world record.

I feel the same about Smith breaking Punter's existing record over 4 tests and Kohli having a chance to have broken Gavaskar's.

The thing is that you talk about with Smith is that he is someone who is getting scores consistently since 2014, not just "here and there". You're ignoring his progression as a player. You mention the UAE, and Smith and Warner are the only ones who got anything done there. Sure they are filling their boots up now with a poor attack on flat pitches but don't discredit the work they've done throughout the year.

 

[cnerd123]

I rate it, I don't rate it "The best performance by an Indian batsman against Australia" though. yet that's how history will record it.

Ok, so then you disagree with WW as well.

 

[Flem274*]

I rate it, I don't rate it "The best performance by an Indian batsman against Australia" though. yet that's how history will record it.

I think you're overblowing the significance of statistics to the general public tbh.

Kohli has the record but people will still debate in years to come whether it was. I have no idea whether Sangakkara's double is the highest innings by a Sri Lankan against New Zealand but it's the best I've seen.

 

[Blocky]

Ok, so then you disagree with WW as well.

I don't disagree with his first post

You look around in the current climate and there a dime a dozen now. Smith's filling his boots, Warner seems to get one every innings, Sanga's having a ball, Williamson gets a double having been dropped three times!!.. AB in this current series vs WI, Kohli has three vs Aus...a youngster like Brathwaite has three in three series and what can be said about that ton fest in Asia when Pakistan played Aus and NZ?!!

I wonder if there will soon come a time when a ton will become the new fifty? because it just seems to be far too easy for batsmen these days.

nor subsequent posts.

He's clearly a very good player but i haven't seen anything change in his game that tells me he wouldn't get exposed in England again.

But this is not about Kohli..it's about cricket in general and how tons are being scored like it's nothing these days!!..gets boring and questions have to be asked about the quality of the pitches and bowling attacks in the current climate.

But the bandwagon started, let's take ONE point made by WW and attack it mercilessly while neglecting all other points, then sledge him for it, then troll him for it too.

I personally disagree with his point on Kohli, but he's got reasons to make it. Kohli was piss poor in the UK.

 

[cnerd123]

That scoring 100s has become easier?

I think we established that 10 pages ago.

Anyways; you started off by trying to justify WW discrediting Kohli's performance. Now you have backed away from that. So I don't feel the need to continue to engage with you anymore.

Good luck trying to convince people that Smith was a batsman 'prone to nick off early' tho.

 

[Dan]

...which is not the post we're discussing.