Are tons really that impressive in this era?

[Noah]

Brendon McCullum just broke the most amount of runs scored in a season by an NZ batsman, the highest score by an NZ batsman, the most hundreds over 150 in a calendar year, the fastest century by a NZ batsman and was about 20 metres away from the fastest double century of all time. Williamson lifted his average from 34 to 45 in the space of a year while that was happening too. Angelo Matthews has put runs on at almost 80 since being captain having been good, but not great before that.

A lot of batsmen who have been good, and great on their day, turning in legendary performances in the last 12 to 18 months.

I agree with all of that but you're just reiterating a point that was established at the very beginning of this thread. No-one is disputing that more runs and more centuries are being scored now. The debate has moved onto the cause and your point above doesn't actually indicate that flatter wickets are to blame or that they're the dominant factor.

Case in point

Prior to 2014 - Smith had 2 centuries across 16 tests.
Since 2014, he's scored 6 centuries - 1 against South Africa, 1 against England, 4 against India in this test series.

I don't see what the point here is?

You've selected a young batsmen and then looked at the part of his career where everyone knew he was struggling (and probably undeserving of his place) and then compared it to the time where he finally matured and delivered on his potential. You're just showing that many young players go through periods of rapid improvement, especially if they are thrown in the deep end as youngsters.

 

[cnerd123]

I still think it's because the worlds worst top eight bowling attacks are on tour atm. Even the most passionate Smith or Williamson fan has to admit the bowling on offer isn't what makes their scoring so remarkable, but the other qualities they show (concentration, grit, consistency, ruthlessness etc).

The fielding isn't helping either. Smith, Kohli and Kane have offered up plenty of chances.

If you're not going to take your catches then quality players are going to make lots of runs.

Yea, these are basically the main reasons.

I mentioned in the Ind/Aus thread how I feel Smith's performance this series basically minnow-bashing. Still takes something special to hit 4 tons in 4 matches; how many other minnow bashers have managed that?

Williamson's 200 came in a difficult situation and he saw out good passages of play, and Kohli/Rahane/Vijay have been excellent in face of some very good and disciplined bowling. Flat pitches help but trying to demean all centuries made on flat pitches is insane.

Also FWIW I really enjoy having Blocky and WW around. It would be quite boring if all we had were reasonable and logical posters.

 

[Blocky]

I agree with all of that but you're just reiterating a point that was established at the very beginning of this thread. No-one is disputing that more runs and more centuries are being scored now. The debate has moved onto the cause and your point above doesn't actually indicate that flatter wickets are to blame or that they're the dominant factor.

When a venue seems to have records broken everytime someone bats there, that seems to be pretty much an indication that a flat wicket is in play, no? The debate itself hasn't really moved on from the fact that Flat Wickets, **** Bowling = More Runs than ever.

I don't see what the point here is?

You've selected a young batsmen and then looked at the part of his career where everyone knew he was struggling (and probably undeserving of his place) and then compared it to the time where he finally matured and delivered on his potential. You're just showing that many young players go through periods of rapid improvement, especially if they are thrown in the deep end as youngsters.

You're selecting the same young batsman, looking at the part of his career where he's making runs and extrapolating that out to be something more than him making runs this series. Neither of us will be right or wrong until he faces up against say New Zealand in NZ, or South Africa again to see if this is a flash in the pan against a **** team and easy conditions - or Smith coming out to show he's class. I actually think it's more of the former than the latter, I'm also by no means alone here.

 

[Blocky]

Also, Clarke (who is a great) with back spasms, dodgy hamstrings and very little cricket before this series went out and tonned up against this attack on these pitches, even invalids with restricted movement can score runs against this attack.

 

[sledger]

Glad you completely ignored the context of Clarke's century when discounting it.

 

[Dan]

Dan - do you really believe that the wickets on display here haven't been anything other than roads that require batsman to find creative ways to get themselves out? 4 Matches, 4 First Innings scores over 500+ for the first time ever. Smith about to break the record for most runs in a 4 test series, Kohli breaking records of the legendary greats of the last era, Rogers going from not being able to buy a run to scoring frequently, Watson almost getting centuries instead of almost getting fifties, Haddin even finding runs.

Re the Australian bowling in this game - I think they bowled good containing lines for most of the innings but they haven't looked lethal, the dropped chances have certainly helped them but I'd dare say after this test series people might even be asking for Siddle to come back.

Yes, of course the pitches are flat. But "the pitch is flat" doesn't immediately make the innings useless like WW is suggesting. Australia bowled,well at Kohli, and Kohli batted well. Sure, he had the assistance of the pitch but that doesn't preclude him from batting well. Plenty of ATG knocks get scored on flat decks, so I don't think its that big a call to suggest that Kohlj batted well and made a valuable ton yesterday.

Smith is undoubtedly flattered by his figures this series, but the best thing about it has been an Aussie middle order batsman not named Clarke going on to convert starts and show some ruthlessness. This series shows some things about Smith, but his reputation is primarily from the Ashes, SA and UAE tours. This shows he can cash in, more so than make high quality runs against good attacks.

And then WW's weird obsession with technical flaws would basically write off Sanga's double at the Basin as Boult failing to execute and NZ ducking because of it, because Sanga failed with the same technique the previous game and didn't dramatically change anything. It ignores that tweaks needed are often minor, and that good batsmen can find ways to deal with things that aren't quite working for them (Tendulkar 241*).

"Sanga got out to Boult cheaply jn NZ therefore has a problem vs. left arm swing. He hasn't fixed that, even though India are playing 2+2 at home and not swinging it because Mumbai dustbowl, so obviously the attack is rubbish and the runs don't count and Sanga's crap despite literally tonnes of evidence definitively proving otherwise".

 

[cnerd123]

Dan determined to convert this start. Sowing great ruthlessness here alongside Noah. The rest of the batters could learn a thing or two.

 

[Dan]

Ftr that isn't an invitation to make this thread about Sangakkara, just an example to illustrate how,ludicrous WW's way of,arguing this is.

 

[Blocky]

Yes, of course the pitches are flat. But "the pitch is flat" doesn't immediately make the innings useless like WW is suggesting. Australia bowled,well at Kohli, and Kohli batted well. Sure, he had the assistance of the pitch but that doesn't preclude him from batting well. Plenty of ATG knocks get scored on flat decks, so I don't think its that big a call to suggest that Kohlj batted well and made a valuable ton yesterday.

Smith is undoubtedly flattered by his figures this series, but the best thing about it has been an Aussie middle order batsman not named Clarke going on to convert starts and show some ruthlessness. This series shows some things about Smith, but his reputation is primarily from the Ashes, SA and UAE tours. This shows he can cash in, more so than make high quality runs against good attacks.

And then WW's weird obsession with technical flaws would basically write off Sanga's double at the Basin as Boult failing to execute and NZ ducking because of it, because Sanga failed with the same technique the previous game and didn't dramatically change anything. It ignores that tweaks needed are often minor, and that good batsmen can find ways to deal with things that aren't quite working for them (Tendulkar 241*).

"Sanga got out to Boult cheaply jn NZ therefore has a problem vs. left arm swing. He hasn't fixed that, even though India are playing 2+2 at home and not swinging it because Mumbai dustbowl, so obviously the attack is rubbish and the runs don't count and Sanga's crap despite literally tonnes of evidence definitively proving otherwise".

If it were just say Kohli or Smith making runs then I'd be in complete agreement, but we're seeing everyone in the Australian team make runs even when they're previously been in horrible form, we're seeing some of the worst career statistics for bowlers by a "Top 6" team in India, we're seeing team scoring records be broken and again, coming back to the point I made that WW hasn't made, we're seeing batting records that have stood for a number of years be broken by guys that were good, but not great before this series - i.e Smith.

The real answer will likely come when these teams go on to play other teams and whether this is a flash in the pan or if this is a sign of things to come. The same answers I'm looking forward to for Williamson, McCullum and Watling in England.

 

[Noah]

When a venue seems to have records broken everytime someone bats there, that seems to be pretty much an indication that a flat wicket is in play, no? The debate itself hasn't really moved on from the fact that Flat Wickets, **** Bowling = More Runs than ever.

Which venue is this? I responded to a point in which you detailed the performances of McCullum, Williamson and Matthews at a variety venues over the past year. You didn't detail a glut of runs and records at one venue.

 

[Kippax]

Sanga failed with the same technique the previous game and didn't dramatically change anything.

Actually though...

Ability to adapt is Kumar Sangakkara's strong suit | Stuff.co.nz

Wright would've got no argument from Sangakkara, whose 203 on day two of this Basin Reserve test came as no fluke.

"I spent the week leading up to [the first test of the series at] Christchurch thinking about what style of batting would work for me on this tour," Sangakkara explained after registering the 11th double hundred of his 130-test career.

"That worked OK for a little while, but I found that maybe my foot movement was not the best in the first innings. I tweaked it a bit for the second innings [but the] foot movement was very similar - it didn't go anywhere.

"So I spent the next three days trying to understand what I should do with my body and my setup to try and get my feet moving a bit better and my bat going in the direction of the swing. Especially to [Trent] Boult, because he was to me the biggest threat that I was facing. I tweaked and tweaked and kept hitting balls with the fielding coach [Trevor Penney] throwing at me and I felt pretty comfortable that it was working well to a left-armer. And it worked well."

 

[Blocky]

Which venue is this? I responded to a point in which you detailed the performances of McCullum, Williamson and Matthews at a variety venues over the past year. You didn't detail a glut of runs and records at one venue.

Basin Reserve.

McCullum - 300 last year, shared a world record partnership stand with BJ Watling of 350 odd
Williamson - 242 this year, shared a new world record partnership stand with BJ Watling of 360 odd.

 

[Blocky]

Actually though...

Ability to adapt is Kumar Sangakkara's strong suit | Stuff.co.nz

Yeah, I was going to answer that point with this article but apparently "there is no excuse to bring up Sanga again"

 

[cnerd123]

Blocky slowing down his pace and aiming wider of the stumps. Trying to strangle Dan and Noah into making a mistake.

FWIW Smith as scored 275 runs more than the next higest Aussie run scorer (Warner). Warner and Smith the only centurions for Aus this series, together they have outscored the rest of the Aussie squad combined.

 

[cnerd123]

Actually though...

Ability to adapt is Kumar Sangakkara's strong suit | Stuff.co.nz

Clearly not a dramatic change though, as Dan said.

 

[Blocky]

Blocky slowing down his pace and aiming wider of the stumps. Trying to strangle Dan and Noah into making a mistake.

FWIW Smith as scored 275 runs more than the next higest Aussie run scorer (Warner). Warner and Smith the only centurions for Aus this series, together they have outscored the rest of the Aussie squad combined.

Warner - scoring runs at 15 more than his average prior to this series
Smith - scoring runs at 100 more than his average prior to this series
Marsh - scoring runs at 30 more than his average prior to this series
Rogers - scoring runs at 15 more than his average prior to this series

That being said, I'll conceed Smith is being ruthless and determined to keep racking up the runs and not get bored/make mistakes, that's commendable but let's see him play against teams with a bowling attack that has less than 250 wickets between them and also has someone averaging less than 30

 

[cnerd123]

but we're seeing everyone in the Australian team make runs even when they're previously been in horrible form,

Warner - scoring runs at 15 more than his average prior to this series
Smith - scoring runs at 100 more than his average prior to this series
Marsh - scoring runs at 30 more than his average prior to this series
Rogers - scoring runs at 15 more than his average prior to this series

So everyone = 4 people?

 

[Blocky]

So everyone = 4 people?

Four out of your six batsmen. If I included Mitch Marsh and Clarke in that list you'd have your six.

The only person not making runs is Watson, and that's because he's so mud he'll give chances anywhere.

Harris, Johnson looking like actuall all rounders rather than slogging tail enders, etc.

 

[cnerd123]

Johnson has a Test hundred against South Africa.

Watson, Haddin, Burns all struggling.

SMarsh scored 40% of his runs this series in one innings.

Rogers and Warner have filled their boots, but Smith has exceeded them by so much that to even suggest that Smith's performances aren't special because 'All the Aussies are scoring runs' is just plain wrong.

 

[Blocky]

He's performing against a bowling attack that has taken wickets at 54 each this series. 54 per wicket. Six Australian batsman have averages higher than 50 in this series.

Also in regards to Warner, opening batsman coming in at 0/0 against fresh new ball bowlers, versus #4 batsman coming in generally at 200 against tired, discouraged bowlers and an oldish ball.