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cricrate: new cricket ratings website

weldone

Hall of Fame Member
If an years played setup is implemented you have issues where players get dropped and pick years down the line.. or cases where players miss a long stretch like for the WWs.
This is exactly the reason I'm advising you to follow my discussion with PEWS on longevity in his thread. All these questions are addressed in detail there.

Don't just imagine issues when you have solutions a few clicks away.
 
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viriya

International Captain
then make it significant FFS.

Your all-time rankings are a huge joke at best. LT is completely justified in his attack in this thread. Spend some time following the discussions in PEWS' thread, as I've advised before (that's my best constructive advice at this moment, as you said you're looking for advice in this thread).
Link?
 

viriya

International Captain
then make it significant FFS.

Your all-time rankings are a huge joke at best. LT is completely justified in his attack in this thread. Spend some time following the discussions in PEWS' thread, as I've advised before (that's my best constructive advice at this moment, as you said you're looking for advice in this thread).
LT was a troll who got banned AFAIK, I realize you think that kapil was a far far better odi bowler, but your reasons for the ATG ratings being a "huge joke" aren't very clear.. You just disagree that English 90s batsmen should feature? I'm sorry but that's hardly enough of an explanation.
 

weldone

Hall of Fame Member
LT was a troll who got banned AFAIK, I realize you think that kapil was a far far better odi bowler, but your reasons for the ATG ratings being a "huge joke" aren't very clear.. You just disagree that English 90s batsmen should feature? I'm sorry but that's hardly enough of an explanation.
I have seen and worked on such ratings before. And the all-time ratings look like a joke overall. The reason is the methodology, and the final lists. The fact that you think my gripe is about specific examples like Kapil or the English batsmen of the 90s is the exact reason I didn't want to come up with examples at the first place.

This is not how you do an all-time ranking. If you see a serious effort like PEWS (I won't post a link; if you visit the list of threads started by him you'll find it there), you may realise your all-time ratings are a pedestrian effort.

LT was not a troll; he genuinely disliked the ratings to the fullest. And I support him.

I won't be so critical of your current ratings (they are better than the overall ratings, at least). But do you have examples to show how those are better than the ICC rankings? And if not, what's the point of having them?
 
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viriya

International Captain
I have seen and worked on such ratings before. And the all-time ratings look like a joke overall. The reason is the methodology, and the final lists. The fact that you think my gripe is about specific examples like Kapil or the English batsmen of the 90s is the exact reason I didn't want to come up with examples at the first place.

This is not how you do an all-time ranking. If you see a serious effort like PEWS (I won't post a link; if you visit the list of threads started by him you'll find it there), you may realise your all-time ratings are a pedestrian effort.

LT was not a troll; he genuinely disliked the ratings to the fullest. And I support him.

I won't be so critical of your current ratings (they are better than the overall ratings, at least). But do you have examples to show how those are better than the ICC rankings? And if not, what's the point of having them?
I think you're trying to be helpful so I'll play along. What exactly in the methodology do you not like? It takes into account as many avaiable factors from a scorecard as possible to rate each innings (I'm assuming you've seen the list of factors), gets the average innings rating of a player and adds a longevity bonus scaled by era and the average rating itself (so a poor average innings player doesn't just jump up the list because he's played a lot of matches).

Is it so hard to come up with specific examples? I do think it's a work in progress, and statistical exercises will always have issues, but if you were more specific I could actually look into what you are saying.

Whether LT was a troll or not is irrelevant - for one thing he saw an early draft of the ratings so its not what you're seeing now.

I checked PEWS' started threads and couldn't find a specific ATG methodology or longevity - would appreciate it if you could post/PM a link.

The current ratings, innings ratings and career ratings are all tied together. Each innings rating affects the current rating of a player, with more recent innings given a larger weight. That current rating is a crucial part in evaluating the innings rating itself - the bowling attack's quality factor when rating a batsman's innings is based on that attack's current rating. The reason I believe my setup is better than the ICC setup is that I take the same factors + 6-7 more factors parsed from the scorecard into account (such as point of entry, match status, wickets fallen, support, closeness, team ratings etc).

AFAIK this type of comprehensive, automated, detailed-scorecard based ratings setup has not been implmented before (I've seen great ideas but with manual and limited implementation or narrow ideas with wider implementation). I realize its not perfect by any means, but I really am looking for some constructive criticism that bears in mind that this is an exercise based on data, so "x is better than y therefore this ratings is ****" is generally not helpful without more detail.

I appreciate your comments, but please be more specific - thanks.
 
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weldone

Hall of Fame Member
Should viriya read through the entire thread to know how it developed or can he skip the first few pages?
 

viriya

International Captain
I read through the entire thread and some of the longevity issues you guys have touched on are were very interesting. I had spent most of my time getting the innings ratings up to par and didn't worry too much about how handling longevity with matches played (even with a scaling factor for era) affects players of past eras and less-test-playing countries negatively. I re-implemented my longevity calculation for career rankings with a setup similar to what PEWS ended up doing, with a player getting 50% of the year's credit if no tests were played (similarly for ODIs). A few things to note comparing my setup with PEWS's standardized average setup:

- Mine is bottom-up (rate each innings and average them out) and his is top-down (standardize existing averages)
- Mine handles bowling/batting quality faced more specifically (weighted bowling attack current ratings/dismissed batsmen current ratings) than averaging recent performances (which has some issues that PEWS and I have discussed earlier in this thread)
- More factors such as point of entry/match status/support/etc are considered.. insuring innings such as Lara's 153* and Gooch's 154* are rated highly (check cricrate | Test Batting Ratings and cricrate | Test Bowling Ratings for a full list of factors considered)

Some significant changes in the career rankings with this longevity formula change:
- Sobers jumps to the top 10 in Test batting (cricrate | Best Test Batting Careers)
- Barrington drops down to #27 in Test batting
- O'Reilly moves into the top 10 in Test bowling (cricrate | Best Test Bowling Careers)
- Viv moves to #1 in ODI batting (cricrate | Best ODI Batting Careers)
- Sanga drops to #9 from #5 and Lara moves up to #5 in ODI batting

Also now Worrell > Lawry > Trescothick in Test batting and Kapil > Nehra in ODI bowling (although Faf is still highly rated).

The NZ vs SL 2nd test and SA vs WI 3rd test updates are through, with Kane Williamson breaking the top 5 with a career best current rating of 813:
cricrate | Current Top Test Batsmen
 

Prince EWS

Global Moderator
- Mine is bottom-up (rate each innings and average them out) and his is top-down (standardize existing averages)
Mine is actually calculated bottom-up as well; I just represent it in a top-down fashion because I think most cricket people relate to it better in that format.
 

Coronis

International Coach
I'm curious, how is Fazal Mahmood rated above Waqar and Wasim, when they have more wickets, played for longer, at better averages, with better strike rates, with similar wpm?
 

viriya

International Captain
Afridi is a better ODI batsman than Symonds, OK.
The short answer to this is that Afridi has been around for almost twice the time as Symonds was.. 18 years+ to <10. Ignoring longevity, Symonds has a rating of 751 compared to Afridi's 661. It's better but not significantly better to override the longevity aspect. Afridi, while known to throw it away a lot, has a lot of significant innings (12 2k+ rated innings vs Symonds 5), and his strike rate is untouched by anyone who has played a decent amount of cricket - in that way he is slightly underrated.
 
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viriya

International Captain
I'm curious, how is Fazal Mahmood rated above Waqar and Wasim, when they have more wickets, played for longer, at better averages, with better strike rates, with similar wpm?
This is an interesting one which I also didn't expect - partly because I didn't know much about Fazal. The main reason for this is that Fazal has significantly more great performances than either Wasim or Waqar at test level while playing only a fraction of the tests (7 2k+ rated performances vs 3 each for Wasim and Waqar over ~1/3rd the tests).

The number of tests he played is also a little deceiving because Pakistan didn't actually play as many tests back then - he played for 10 years compared to Waqar's 14 and Wasim's 17 which is not as big of a difference as 34 vs ~100 tests.
 

smash84

The Tiger King
kyear2 is going to blow his top if he sees 7 bowlers above Malcolm Marshall, especially his pet hate Richard Hadlee
 

Coronis

International Coach
This is an interesting one which I also didn't expect - partly because I didn't know much about Fazal. The main reason for this is that Fazal has significantly more great performances than either Wasim or Waqar at test level while playing only a fraction of the tests (7 2k+ rated performances vs 3 each for Wasim and Waqar over ~1/3rd the tests).

The number of tests he played is also a little deceiving because Pakistan didn't actually play as many tests back then - he played for 10 years compared to Waqar's 14 and Wasim's 17 which is not as big of a difference as 34 vs ~100 tests.
Fair enough. Guess part of it also has to do with lone wolf vs supportive bowlers. Something I noticed - Grimmett played 37 tests, not 36. Think all the bowlers in the 10 deserve to be up there, not necessarily in that order, except Kumble, but he'd be up there due to his longevity.
 

viriya

International Captain
Fair enough. Guess part of it also has to do with lone wolf vs supportive bowlers. Something I noticed - Grimmett played 37 tests, not 36. Think all the bowlers in the 10 deserve to be up there, not necessarily in that order, except Kumble, but he'd be up there due to his longevity.
The number of tests displayed there is actually the ones he actually bowled in.. If you look at the batting rankings you'll notice Bradman only shows 50 tests because he didn't bat in two of his 52.
 
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