Top Five Most Underrated Cricketers Ever.

[MrPrez]

Hmmm... Which performances are you talking about here? Kallis' bowling is underrated imo, but saying he produced performances or results of a frontline bowler more than Sobers is patently false.

Well I'm going along with the logic behind the discussion between GI Joe and harsh.ag

Sobers had the workload of a first-4 bowler with the output of a 6th or 7th bowler. I don't know that that's necessarily a ringing endorsement. Kallis was the exact opposite.

It was about Sobers being selected as a bowler only. Was writing with strict regards to that, not anything else.

My point being that Sobers being selected as a bowler only is irrelevant if Kallis was putting out definitively better performances than him.

My comment was based upon the logic of the argument, not on my opinion of their bowling styles.

 

[Flametree]

Kallis's average against sides other than Zim/Bangladesh was over 35. Just saying....

 

[G.I.Joe]

I agree with some of what you're saying but which 7th bowler averages 34?

Which 5th bowler has a SR of 91? That said, some dick will probably supply a list of said bowlers now. It's pushing it at regular Test level as it is, and definitely so at the ATG XI level.

Is Sobers' batting advantage that great over Kallis that we'd rather have the ATG XI 5th bowler picking his wickets every 15.1 overs instead of every 10.3 overs?

 

[fredfertang]

Also, @Fred being picked over a specialist spinner doesn't necessarily mean he is better than the spinner. Just like how many believed JP Duminy at 7 and 4 pacers was a viable composition for Test cricket - few would argue that Duminy is the best spinner on offer. And while I know you know that, I feel that it is important to highlight it. Particularly for a pace-bowling nation like the West Indies, Having a fourth pacer in the team and a less-impactful spinner is often preferable. Sobers bowling ahead of a specialist spinner says nothing more than "Sobers could bowl spin at a somewhat respectable level."

This is of course true, and Valentine never again bowled as he did in England in 1950, although his reputation was still going before him when Sobers made his debut in '54 - it also needs to be borne in mind that in that final Test the West Indies just needed a draw, and they already had two rabbits in the batting without Valentine, so it was a defensive selection - didn't alter the fact that Sobers was the WIndies most successful bowler in the game though

 

[G.I.Joe]

It was about Sobers being selected as a bowler only. Was writing with strict regards to that, not anything else.

IMO if they are available for selection as just bowlers, I'd pick Kallis over Sobers every time, except probably on spinning pitches.Don't you think Kallis could take on a greater bowling workload if he didn't have to face 100 deliveries an innings with the bat?

 

[harsh.ag]

IMO if they are available for selection as just bowlers, I'd pick Kallis over Sobers every time, except probably on spinning pitches.Don't you think Kallis could take on a greater bowling workload if he didn't have to face 100 deliveries an innings with the bat?

That was due to his style of playing. Don't know why he should be given credit for taking more balls than Sobers. Sobers scored 3 runs more than him per innings on average.

Anyways, I don't know why everyone is doing this. Statistically they are very close. People who prefer Sobers prefer him because they find his game more attractive.

 

[smash84]

IMO if they are available for selection as just bowlers, I'd pick Kallis over Sobers every time, except probably on spinning pitches.

No point here either since Sobers would be bowling pace on such pitches and lose his advantage. What a genius

 

[Pratters]

Shahid Afridi underrated as an ODI bowler?

 

[smash84]

Kallis's average against sides other than Zim/Bangladesh was over 35. Just saying....

Let's not go down this route. There were a lot many minnows in Sobers's time than there were in Kallis's

 

[Pratters]

Sobers is overrated as an all rounder considering his bowling wasn't all that amazing. Gilchrist is one of the few true all rounders who could walk into any side as a batter or keeper.

 

[Pratters]

Re Kallis' bowling - have seen him bowl in the 140s. Would take him ahead of any Indian fast bowler since Srinath. Would be the greatest fast bowler produced by Bangladesh had he been a Bangladeshi.

 

[G.I.Joe]

That was due to his style of playing. Don't know why he should be given credit for taking more balls than Sobers. Sobers scored 3 runs more than him per innings on average.

Anyways, I don't know why everyone is doing this. Statistically they are very close. People who prefer Sobers prefer him because they find his game more attractive.

See, I don't get these double standards. People penalise Kallis for staying longer at the crease with the bat, but it's advantage Sobers for taking on a greater bowling workload. Hey, maybe if Sobers was capable of picking up a wicket every 63 deliveries instead of 91 he would not have had to bowl those long spells.

 

[G.I.Joe]

No point here either since Sobers would be bowling pace on such pitches and lose his advantage. What a genius

I stand corrected

 

[harsh.ag]

See, I don't get these double standards. People penalise Kallis for staying longer at the crease with the bat, but it's advantage Sobers for taking on a greater bowling workload. Hey, maybe if Sobers was capable of picking up a wicket every 63 deliveries instead of 91 he would not have had to bowl those long spells.

It's not advantage Sobers. That was with regards to Sobers being like a front line bowler with that workload. Your fifth bowler does not bowl 22 overs on average.

I am not talking about Sobers vs Kallis, have been saying it for two pages. What do you not understand about this?!!!

 

[the big bambino]

Let's not go down this route. There were a lot many minnows in Sobers's time than there were in Kallis's

Lets do bcos no team has been as awful as Banglers and Zimbucks. Pakistan, NZ and for a while now the WI have had some pretty dodgy batting sides especially away from home.

Don't you think Kallis could take on a greater bowling workload if he didn't have to face 100 deliveries an innings with the bat?

Am I missing the point of the distinction here? Bcos Sobers was known to face a delivery or two as a batsman himself.

 

[Pratters]

Sobers' strike rate was lower because of the kind of bowler he was and the era in which he bowled. Not too worse off than Lance Gibbs.

 

[G.I.Joe]

Am I missing the point of the distinction here? Bcos Sobers was known to face a delivery or two as a batsman himself.

That goes without saying. The point is that Kallis and Sobers would both be unencumbered by batting responsibilities if picked solely as bowlers, and that would nullify the overs/match distinction, leaving them to be compared solely on average and strike rate. Unless one truly believes that Kallis would continue to bowl 10 overs a match (or whatever the figure is) even as a pure bowler, which seems extremely unlikely to me.

 

[G.I.Joe]

And this is not to say that the only reason Kallis bowled less was because of his batting responsibilities. As Prez has mentioned, SA had the bowling resources to not require him to bowl as much.

 

[the big bambino]

Kallis was purely fast medium and pretty ordinary if you select him as that alone. Sobers, like WA Johnston can turn his hand to spin as well as pace and would be useful in all sorts of conditions and situations. It is that ability to play as a stock bowler that pushed up his SR. Since there is little difference btwn their averages I'd favour Sobers as the better alternative.

 

[G.I.Joe]

I'd imagine that a bowler able to adapt to all conditions would have a better average and strike rate than an equivalent one trick pony. 91 vs 63 does not lie.