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**Official** Pakistan v New Zealand in the UAE 2014

F

Fuller Pilch

Hall of Fame Member
It should be remembered though that Smith was generally regarded as the best regular* keeper in the world between Dujon and Healy.

* Jack Russell was probably better but wasn't a regular selection for Eng
 
Hurricane

Hurricane

Hall of Fame Member
Fuller Pilch said:
It should be remembered though that Smith was generally regarded as the best regular* keeper in the world between Dujon and Healy.

* Jack Russell was probably better but wasn't a regular selection for Eng
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Smith was an incredible glovesman. I am surprised that Healy holds the record for most tests without a drop instead of Smith. Although also not surprised as Healy was always quality. But you get my point.
 
Bahnz

Bahnz

Hall of Fame Member
McCullum was definitely more athletic than Smith though. Although that sometimes had the effect of getting him into trouble when he tried diving for catches that really should've been left for 1st slip.
 
Flem274*

Flem274*

123/5
Baz was a genius behind the stumps. It will probably be forgotten in time because he played for the wrong country (much like Prasaana, who was the only guy you could say was better with the gloves) and because his batting takes up all his press space, but for most of his keeping years he was definitely a world class gloveman first and foremost, and a useful contributor of partnerships and half centuries with the bat.

We really missed him until we found Watling. I wonder what might have been had he either been a batsman from the beginning or a keeper forever, rather than the two halves we have.
 
Hurricane

Hurricane

Hall of Fame Member
Flem274* said:
Baz was a genius behind the stumps. It will probably be forgotten in time because he played for the wrong country (much like Prasaana, who was the only guy you could say was better with the gloves) and because his batting takes up all his press space, but for most of his keeping years he was definitely a world class gloveman first and foremost, and a useful contributor of partnerships and half centuries with the bat.

We really missed him until we found Watling. I wonder what might have been had he either been a batsman from the beginning or a keeper forever, rather than the two halves we have.
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by the time I started watching his keeping (Brendon's) was nothing to write home about most likely because I suspect he wasn't disclosing how much his back was hampering him.
Still everyone I know who is my age swears Brendon at his peak was a better keeper than Smith. Having not witnessed his peak myself and only seen the average Brendon I struggle with the comparison more. Still that many eyewitnesses can't be wrong. Smith was good however and I remember him comfortably standing up to some of the more military medium pacers.

Have a memory as well watching Auckland vs Northern Districts in a List A match (back then we got crowds of 2-3K per Shell Cup match) of him taking a diving one handed catch and then not celebrating afterwards. Afterwards there was a ripple in the crowd - "He may be an aucklander but you can see why he is the best".

I've read his auto biography - he was close to Bruce Edgar growing up so that is also an extra bonus for him in my book. Flem should like him more than what he is purporting to as Smith was a CD boy through and through.
 
Flem274*

Flem274*

123/5
Smith was before my time so while I love his CDness, he's distant. By all accounts his keeping was top class but so was Baz (and Parore too). Neither Smith nor Parore are test #7 material though which is where McCullum becomes more valuable.

Turner, Dempster, Sutcliffe, Crowe, R. Taylor, J.R. Reid, McCullum, Hadlee, B. Taylor, Bond, Cowie ftr. Soon I'll have Sutcliffe either dropped or open in place of Dempster with KW at #3 and Southee will probably push Bond or Cowie out through weight of performances and the wickets that come with them. That area in and around #6 and #7 might see some reworking too.

I know a lot of our best players played very few tests due to circumstances outside their control (Dempster, Donnelly, Cowie et al) but thank goodness we're seeing some players come through who are a good chance of pushing them out. It just looks so wrong seeing guys picked with 9 or 10 tests to their names when guys with less forgiving averages like Richardson and Jones don't get a look in. In saying that Cowie will probably hold his place ahead of Bond because injuries count against Bondy.
 
Hurricane

Hurricane

Hall of Fame Member
Flem274* said:
Smith was before my time so while I love his CDness, he's distant. By all accounts his keeping was top class but so was Baz (and Parore too). Neither Smith nor Parore are test #7 material though which is where McCullum becomes more valuable.

Turner, Dempster, Sutcliffe, Crowe, R. Taylor, J.R. Reid, McCullum, Hadlee, B. Taylor, Bond, Cowie ftr. Soon I'll have Sutcliffe either dropped or open in place of Dempster with KW at #3 and Southee will probably push Bond or Cowie out through weight of performances and the wickets that come with them. That area in and around #6 and #7 might see some reworking too.

I know a lot of our best players played very few tests due to circumstances outside their control (Dempster, Donnelly, Cowie et al) but thank goodness we're seeing some players come through who are a good chance of pushing them out. It just looks so wrong seeing guys picked with 9 or 10 tests to their names when guys with less forgiving averages like Richardson and Jones don't get a look in. In saying that Cowie will probably hold his place ahead of Bond because injuries count against Bondy.
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Its a joke that Donnelly is in there in particular. "But wait his contemporaries said he was awesome". So what I think Ross is awesome. We are the only team who has to scratch around and muck around the barrel and come up with some character who played 7 tests and put him in our ATG team.

As for the keeper - We don't need the keeper to bat 7. Hadlee is more than capable of batting at 7 which opens the door for Smith to go 8. Also for team balance sake you need Cairns at 6. It helps to have an all rounder in the team. So its him or Dan.
 
Flem274*

Flem274*

123/5
Reid is the allrounder, and he can bowl medium pace and off spin. Has a more distinguished career than Cairns with the bat too. Bit of a forgotten allrounder these days.

I'd rather have someone at #7 who at least averages 30 with the bat, and while I have no idea who the best keeper we have had is, Baz was world class behind the sticks so I don't feel like I lose much by picking him. If Smith or Parore play then we definitely have to drop a bowler and put Cairns at #7. Would still be a good team but going by stats and what historical types say about our various bowlers I think the pacers I picked are the four best we've had. Bruce Taylor sounds like a forgotten gun when you read what he could do with the ball in hand, plus he was a bowling allrounder.
 
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Bahnz

Bahnz

Hall of Fame Member
If we're playing other all time XI sides, then we need every last run we can get. Our all time batsman are rubbish compared to every other countries.
 
Mike5181

Mike5181

International Captain
Flem274* said:
Reid is the allrounder, and he can bowl medium pace and off spin. Has a more distinguished career than Cairns with the bat too. Bit of a forgotten allrounder these days.
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Reid's bowling isn't really comparable to Chris Cairns though. His SR with the ball was 91, which isn't acceptable at test level, let alone as part of an ATG attack. The small debatable difference in their batting doesn't outweigh that imo.
 
Flem274*

Flem274*

123/5
He's the 5th bowler and token spin bowler. Different role to Cairns, and I'm not dropping a pacer for Vettori unless it's the very early version of him (which I'd consider).

What we really need though is for Kane to take 100 test scalps.
 
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Hurricane

Hurricane

Hall of Fame Member
I never want Sutcliffe to be dropped from the team. So he can go to opener if Kane fulfills his potential. Or what Flem said earlier.
 
kiwiviktor81

kiwiviktor81

International Debutant
Only based on what I've seen, making an assumption that the more recent players are more experienced/drilled/skilled with bat and ball and in the field

Turner
Richardson
Jones
Crowe
Taylor
Cairns
McCullum
Vettori
Hadlee
Bond
Southee
 
kiwiviktor81

kiwiviktor81

International Debutant
Oddly, everyone in that top 5 averages between 44 and 46. Even if you assume that Crowe would have averaged close to 50 had he not been thrown in at the deep end as a youngster, there seems to be a ceiling on how good our best batsmen ever get.
 
Hurricane

Hurricane

Hall of Fame Member
kiwiviktor81 said:
Only based on what I've seen, making an assumption that the more recent players are more experienced/drilled/skilled with bat and ball and in the field
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Never see an ATG team picked on that philosophy before. Most people are comfortable with picking old school players. Your omission of Sutcliffe for Jones for example would make some of us who have read the Kiwi Cricketing folklore as bed time stories cringe.
 
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