**Official** Pakistan v New Zealand in the UAE 2014

[Bahnz]

You would have to assume so, especially given that Craig had a better season in Plunket Cricket last year than Sodhi did.

A couple of those deliveries from Milne look really quick.

 

[ohnoitsyou]

Reversing it like its the Duke. Test debut this summer.

 

[Flem274*]

But guys Milne doesn't swing the ball

I might look up the schedule and start the Sri Lanka series thread. Seems a bit wrong and on the nose to discuss the team for SL in here while the ODIs and shizz are still on.

 

[hendrix]

It does still seem a very block bash innings from guptill, if nits can be picked.

 

[hendrix]

Milne is at least a year, probably more away from test debut but it would be so great to see him terrorise the Lankans.

 

[Flem274*]

Just noticed KW has more or less fitted the careers of Jones and Sutcliffe into 4 years.

How close is he to that number three spot in the NZ all time XI? As a batsman alone (so no wicket keeping), where does Baz rank relative to second XI contenders like Astle and McMillan? Does Baz challenge Fleming, Jones and Sutcliffe yet?

FTR KW has 1744 @ 51.29 since the Colombo test and Baz in his 38 tests without the gloves has 2850 @ 43.18

 

[hendrix]

Baz will be very close to challenging Fleming as middle order batsman/captain by retirement.

 

[ohnoitsyou]

Turner
Sutcliffe
KW
Crowe
Taylor
Baz
Cairns
Vettori
Hadlee
Smith+
Bond.

If not now then 2017.

 

[Bahnz]

It's tough, as obviously McCullum became a specialist batsman once he was already in his prime, so his record isn't diminished by the early years spent finding his feet. As a batsman alone I'd rate him above Astle and probably just above McMillan (another startlingly talented player who underachieved throughout the majority of his career). I wouldn't class him alongside Fleming or Sutcliffe, but in terms of sheer achievement, he has to be above Jones at this stage (not that he's directly competing for a spot in the 2nd XI, as Jones was a number 3, and McCullum would be either an opener or a number 5.

Williamson I think needs another couple of years performing at current levels at least before he can seriously lay claim to the spot. We have to remember that his competition for the number 3 spot is probably either Sutcliffe or Glenn Turner (remembering that John Wright was an absolute beast in the 2nd half of his career), depending on how you structure the top order, and I don't think he's quite on their level yet.

 

[Flem274*]

KW has done more than Sutcliffe in less games from a numbers viewpoint. Sutcliffe has very few serious challengers for intangibles like folklore though. A guy batting at three who smashed Adcock around after being hit in the head without a helmet has a bit going for him. KW has to be close already though, absolutely has to be. When you look at the innings rather than the numbers there are some beauties in there. The debut ton, the match saver against South Africa, the Colombo partnership, the series winner against the West Indies and this latest one here.

Interesting points raised in both your guys posts since Baz, Fleming and Astle were all players of great innings rather than great players. All three rank well above Macca for me.

 

[Bahnz]

Macca was a sad underachiever from my point of view, but he was still a talented player. Yes his career record is biased up by cheap runs against Zimbabwe, but it's worth remembering that Zimbabwe weren't a terrible side when he played against them (although even then their batting was definitely their stronger suit). It's also important to remember that he stopped playing test cricket at 28, when his best years should've been ahead of him. Diabetes and a slack attitude to his own physical fitness ultimately held him back from being the best batsman of the Fleming era imo. I concede that Astle achieved more though, and as such should probably be rated higher.

 

[Flem274*]

Yeah if fate had been kinder and Macka had never had to deal with illness both he and the team would have been so much better off. We missed the likes of him, Styris and Oram in the Vettori era.

 

[wellAlbidarned]

that's why i can't understand how he works as a batting coach. Naturally talented but lazy/disorganised players tend to be the most unlikely coaches because they don't know how to break down what made them effective.

 

[Bahnz]

that's why i can't understand how he works as a batting coach. Naturally talented but lazy/disorganised players tend to be the most unlikely coaches because they don't know how to break down what made them effective.

I don't think he was at all disorganised with his batting, he just didn't have a huge amount of foot movement (much like Ryder). But in terms of balance, weight transfer, shot range and skill against spin, there were few better in his time. The last of those was probably why he was such an ideal fit for batting coach in the last 6 months.

 

[straw man]

Haha yeah.

Are we wanting Craig or Sodhi for home tests? I'm assuming Craig for now.

Yes Craig definitely the more likely and more conservative option. Agree with the post a few pages back that his batting output is likely to decrease fairly significantly on home and non-SC wickets. Funny actually, between him, Williamson and Latham we have a lot of runscoring capacity that's almost better suited to subcontinental conditions than to home!

 

[straw man]

Baz will be very close to challenging Fleming as middle order batsman/captain by retirement.

McCullum will always be, like Vettori, difficult to place in any all-time side because of the way his role changed (and more than once) through his career. You're right he could still challenge Fleming for the middle order and captain spot - more tough overseas runs in his final few years will make a huge difference to that.

 

[NZTailender]

He's the keeper, no question.

At least, until Watling's numbers become relevant.

 

[Hurricane]

He's the keeper, no question.

At least, until Watling's numbers become relevant.

Why is smith not winning the keeper stats when he is the best gloves man we have ever had. I accept his batting wasn't great shakes

 

[NZTailender]

You'd think Smith's stats would be higher given he'd have a lot of caught behinds off Hadlee, but then not much by other bowlers knocking about (which really isn't his fault). Surprised he has as many stumpings as he did, given our history of spin.

Admittedly I haven't seen Smith keep much at all - just highlights really. But McCullum wasn't a mug either, and in fact was superb for a time IMO. He's not an Akmal WK-bat player or anything.

 

[Bahnz]

A month ago I would given us a decent shout of taking a 1-1 draw, but after watching the Oz series, I'm picking 2-0 to Pakistan.

Ugh, I've gotta learn to stop hedging myself out of correct calls.