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**Official** Pakistan v New Zealand in the UAE 2014

ohnoitsyou

International Regular
I didn't say he would - I'd say he could. And he'd still ask for more.
So we are comparing attitudes are we? Both Southee and Boult know the team relies on them with the new ball, and they need to have energy left to fully utilise it come the end of a day and more importantly not break something. As opposed to Wagner and Bracewell who are there to bowl themselves into the ground. If say Henry was opening the bowling with Southee at 3rd seamer, and Southee was reluctant to bowl, then this would be a valid point. But its not, similarly for Anderson, he still has injury problems and needs to make sure he can still bat come next innings.
 

ohnoitsyou

International Regular
This "statistic" is only relevant to your argument if literally every wicket in that time period is caused by reverse. The only thing it tells you is that Boult is garbage during this time. Post the figures actually, I'd be interested in them.
This, i would hazard a guess 1 in 6-8 of our old ball wickets are down to reverse swing.
 

Blocky

Banned
So we are comparing attitudes are we? Both Southee and Boult know the team relies on them with the new ball, and they need to have energy left to fully utilise it come the end of a day and more importantly not break something. As opposed to Wagner and Bracewell who are there to bowl themselves into the ground. If say Henry was opening the bowling with Southee at 3rd seamer, and Southee was reluctant to bowl, then this would be a valid point. But its not, similarly for Anderson, he still has injury problems and needs to make sure he can still bat come next innings.
Right, but when you're not taking wickets with the new ball you become an absolute liability if you can't bowl a good set in the middle overs.

Southee - amazing, he can come back and make stuff happen with the older ball.
Boult - only really creates opportunity when the ball is absolutely new.
Wagner - has a tendency of taking big wickets and taking them in stages of the innings that we struggle, due to not having good spin bowling.

Now, the argument was never "is Southee better than Wagner" - that was the strawman constructed to try and argue the real point, that Wagner is well known for his ability to make the old ball move and statistically, has a much higher likelihood of taking wickets during the middle overs than any other NZ bowler in the last three seasons. Going back further than that isn't beneficial, because we end up with Southee who was extremely inconsistent and it's just too long to understand where the bowlers are currently at.

Anyone disagreeing that Wagner doesn't get reverse swing - fine, but the basis of evidence indicates not only does he get reverse swing but it's something the selectors think about as a main weapon he brings to the table.
Anyone disagreeing that Wagner doesn't get reverse swing, then trying to say Boult gets more than he does - flat out, unbelievable statement and something that has no basis of reality.

You'll also note I've stated I think we should be playing Wagner, Boult and Southee all together irregardless, because we've got more chance of them being in the side in three years time than we do of Sodhi or Craig based on their performance history ( domestic and international ) -but we're stuck in the same trap that almost every side since the 80s has been in when they tour spinning nations - let's select inferior cricketers because they happen to bowl spin and ensure that we have no threat/danger and don't get our more established peformers an opportunity to learn how to operate in foreign conditions.
 
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Blocky

Banned
This, i would hazard a guess 1 in 6-8 of our old ball wickets are down to reverse swing.
"Hazard a guess" - which again belies an issue, we'll take a video snapshot of one innings as evidence, but we won't take a back history going back 50 wickets in the last three seasons as evidence, because it doesn't suit our point.
 

Adders

Cricketer Of The Year
I think it's best for all of us if I just put you back on ignore.

Goodbye, sweet Blocky. I will never forget you.
Do it hendrix.......in fact everyone here should do it before the test starts. There is enough good posters sitting on the sidelines right now, lets not lose anymore.
 

ohnoitsyou

International Regular
"Hazard a guess" - which again belies an issue, we'll take a video snapshot of one innings as evidence, but we won't take a back history going back 50 wickets in the last three seasons as evidence, because it doesn't suit our point.
I have seen every single wicket taken in the last 3-4 years remember. Of course actual statistics are always preferable, but i can't recall more than a few wickets being down to reverse swing. More often than not its seam, or batsmen error.
 

Howsie

International Captain
tbf I can honestly say I've never really seen Boult get reverse swing before. It's something he really needs to work on IMO, if he wants to take the next step anyway.
 

Hurricane

Hall of Fame Member
Can't wait. Hope we bat first and I really hope baz comes off opening the batting so that he stays there.

We will lose 3-0 unless we find a pitch to our liking ( pews said occasionally they prepare one with something in it for the seamers iirc) but I am hoping for some good performances at an individual level and would like to see a Taylor hundred and a Corey hundred.
 

ohnoitsyou

International Regular
Ffs you two. Phlegm and Althai was funny because it took me weeks to realise they were two different posters, but this is just confusing.
 

RxGM

U19 Vice-Captain
In support of Blocky;
In the 2nd test the west indies batsman scored big runs through the middle overs and it became a game of waiting for the new ball in the 3rd test
Neil Wagner ran in and brook partnerships in the middle over, im not exactly sure why he took them but it is likely a combination of his effort, his cricket IQ, and his swearing the batsman.
Trent Boult just doesn’t take these sort of wickets, southee can but only if conditions are suitable for him ie Bangalore Port-o-Spain

Lastly Boult averages 35 in the sub continent + WI Wagner averages 27
 

hendrix

Hall of Fame Member
I don't disagree with any of that, FWIW. And I very much agree that Boult needs to get better at old ball bowling.
 

Blocky

Banned
I have seen every single wicket taken in the last 3-4 years remember. Of course actual statistics are always preferable, but i can't recall more than a few wickets being down to reverse swing. More often than not its seam, or batsmen error.
Right - so out of those "I have seen every wicket taken in the last 3-4 years" - I can remember at least six of Wagner moving the ball late and taking wickets. I can also remember Southee bowling amazingly well to take wickets with reverse swing. But if your contention is that reverse swing is only dangerous when it causes a wicket, then your contention is wrong - pressure in cricket induces mistakes, if a batsman is under pressure because of swing, it's more often than not the one that doesn't swing that takes the wicket.
 

Hurricane

Hall of Fame Member
Here is my "analysis" post for the day. After the 1st innings 1st test it was obvious they had a meeting on how to bat and decided to play back if In doubt against spin. It didn't really pay off with baz in particular being caught by one that skidded on. So where to from here? I predict we will turn to the sweep as well as staying camped on the back foot. We are kiwis and we sweep well. Although you have to be brave to sweep against the spin you can do so if it is pitched up especially on leg stump. This is raw speculation but that is my guess I think unless we are proactive one is going to come along with our name on it.
 

smash84

The Tiger King
I expect Misbah to win the toss and put the Kiwis in to bat. Then Kiwis will bat until lunch tomorrow and get out for 325 or so.
 

Blocky

Banned
I expect Misbah to win the toss and put the Kiwis in to bat. Then Kiwis will bat until lunch tomorrow and get out for 325 or so.
Nah. Misbah knows to bat first, he's not silly, the thing Pakistan have done extraordinarily well this season is put massive scoreboard pressure on the opposition by batting for two days and putting 500 or so on the board.
 

Blocky

Banned
It'll be interesting to see Pakistan play South Africa, to see whether they've entered a new era of consistency or they're just dicking an underdone problematic Australia and a NZ that they've always had the wood on.
 

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