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Disparity between Pakistani and Indian great pace bowlers.
- Thread starter Red
- Start date
Red
The normal awards that everyone else has
Great fast bowlers of each nation:
Australia: Lillee, McGrath, Lindwall, Davidson, Miller, Spofforth, Turner
WI: Marshall, Ambrose, Holding, Roberts, Garner, Walsh, Hall
Eng: Trueman, Willis, Snow, Botham, Bedser, Tate, Lohmann, Barnes
Pakistan: Imran, Wasim, Waqar, Shoaib, Mahmood
India: Kapil
Australia: Lillee, McGrath, Lindwall, Davidson, Miller, Spofforth, Turner
WI: Marshall, Ambrose, Holding, Roberts, Garner, Walsh, Hall
Eng: Trueman, Willis, Snow, Botham, Bedser, Tate, Lohmann, Barnes
Pakistan: Imran, Wasim, Waqar, Shoaib, Mahmood
India: Kapil
fredfertang
Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
Had they had more opportunities Nissar and Amar Singh might well have earned the ATG accolade, but why there was no one at all between them and Kapil I don't know - would think it must have been the decks they had to work with, mustn't it?
ohnoitsyou
International Regular
There are no vegetarians in Pakistan. Right smali?
HeathDavisSpeed
Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
Javagal Srinath was in the same ball-park as Kapil Dev as a bowler. Didn't have longevity, but was an effective pacer.
smash84
The Tiger King
very few. In fact I don't personally know any vegetarian.
Daemon
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I seriously doubt that has anything to do with it.
Imo it's some combination of pitch conditions, genetics, poor nutrition, poverty, lack of accessibility, role models and coaching. It could be argued that Pakistan doesn't have most of these as well of course.
As most of these things have improved, so has our ability to produce bowlers that are capable of bowling faster than before. Skill wise they aren't there of course but that's a different argument.
Daemon
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Bit unfair to include them since they played mostly before the partition?
the big bambino
International Captain
Why not? They played for India.
Daemon
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The OP is asking for the disparity between Pakistani and Indian quicks, but there wasn't a Pakistan back then because it was a part of India.
In fact if the partition had happened before their careers, Nissar might actually have been yet another great Pakistani quick.
In fact if the partition had happened before their careers, Nissar might actually have been yet another great Pakistani quick.
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cnerd123
likes this
1) Role models - Kids don't grow up wanting to be a fast bowler because they have no one to look up to. Dev was the best inspiration, and he was a swing bowler. I'm sure that has some relation to the relatively high number of decent (occasionally world-class) swing bowlers India has produced since then. But there aren't any pure pace bowling inspirations, let alone any 'complete' fast bowlers (Wasim, Lillee, Marshall, Steyn, etc) to look up to. Zak and Srinath were good, but never the best in the world. For most of their careers there was talk about fitness issues, lack of effectiveness, being underrated, etc. And they both weren't that quick anyways.
2) Pitches and playing conditions - the pitches in India don't reward bowling quickly. You either cut down on pace and be accurate, or cut down on pace and swing the ball. The Ranji schedule is too brutal for young fast bowlers to maintain their pace, and if that workload doesn't break them, then the international schedule will. There have been so many bowlers over the years who start off young and fast, only to be broken and return as medium pacers bowling cutters and gentle swing. Even school-level cricket schedules are intense from what I hear, but can't be sure on that.
3) Coaching/Selection - Coaches in India coach to earn money. You get more students attending if more of your former students have played for representative teams.
Similarly, selectors/coaches of representative teams pick players to win trophies. Not to develop them. Young tearaway quicks on dead pitches who break down after one game do not win competitions. Accurate, reliable medium pacers who can cash in on grasstops, or hold up an end while the spinners work away, and who can play for the whole season are far more desirable. They get picked over young, erratic, fragile fast bowlers.
As a result of such selection policies, bowlers are told to focus on line and length and variations when they are young, not pace. I have witnessed this first hand. Young spinners are told to try and spin the ball, young fast bowlers are told to bowl line and length.
The coaches take young talent, and mold them into players who will get picked for the representative teams, which in turn are trying to win games in competitions and on tracks that do not encourage fast bowlers. It's a vicious circle, that is made worse by the fact that since there are no Indian fast bowlers setting the world alight, there is a continued lack of role models, and a continued shortage of youngsters with a desire to bowl fast.
Indian culture plays a role too - Parents/Teachers/Coaches all generally raise kids to win and perform, in every single aspect. Education, Career and Sports. This mentality makes kids more obsessed with short-term success (getting picked for the school team, the uni team, the A team) rather than lofty long-term ambitions (being India's first ATG fast bowler), and they are more inclined to do what it takes to meet the arbitrary criteria of success set for them by their elders. It's a massive flaw in our education system too - the way we teach and assess kids in India means they study hard with the aim of achieving high grades, and not to actually learn anything. This seems to have seeped into our Cricket system. Young kids will do whatever their coaches and say and make sure they tick all the boxes in order to get selected for the next level, and won't risk being a eccentric, different, unorthodox cricketer if it means failure.
In contrast to this - Pakistan have a stronger culture of pace bowling, coaches/selectors who love quick bowlers, and less intense grass root cricket schedules, which allow for these young quicks to grow. Pakistani culture has also diverged from Indian culture in a sense that, possibly due to the political/social situation in the country, people seem to pay more attention to having fun and doing thing is a more stylish, artistic way than they do to purely achieving results.
The diet and genetics arguments are nonsense IMO. They vary so much across India itself, I(the average Punjabi or Pathan kid is probably as strong and fit as the average black/white one and just as capable of bowling quick) and the argument will only apply to the general population as a whole. We are talking International level cricket, and elite few cricketers out of the country of 800 billion. It is definitely possible to find a handful of kids with the physique to bowl fast in India.
My source: Grew up playing cricket with Indians and Pakistanis in Dubai. Was coached by an Indian coaches. It's shocking how, despite the fact that we grew up in the same country, with the same facilities and tournaments and the same diets, all the fast bowlers were inevitably Pakistani (or Sri Lankan, oddly enough).
Point 2 is from a nice article Akash Chopra wrote on this same topic, I'll dig it up later.
2) Pitches and playing conditions - the pitches in India don't reward bowling quickly. You either cut down on pace and be accurate, or cut down on pace and swing the ball. The Ranji schedule is too brutal for young fast bowlers to maintain their pace, and if that workload doesn't break them, then the international schedule will. There have been so many bowlers over the years who start off young and fast, only to be broken and return as medium pacers bowling cutters and gentle swing. Even school-level cricket schedules are intense from what I hear, but can't be sure on that.
3) Coaching/Selection - Coaches in India coach to earn money. You get more students attending if more of your former students have played for representative teams.
Similarly, selectors/coaches of representative teams pick players to win trophies. Not to develop them. Young tearaway quicks on dead pitches who break down after one game do not win competitions. Accurate, reliable medium pacers who can cash in on grasstops, or hold up an end while the spinners work away, and who can play for the whole season are far more desirable. They get picked over young, erratic, fragile fast bowlers.
As a result of such selection policies, bowlers are told to focus on line and length and variations when they are young, not pace. I have witnessed this first hand. Young spinners are told to try and spin the ball, young fast bowlers are told to bowl line and length.
The coaches take young talent, and mold them into players who will get picked for the representative teams, which in turn are trying to win games in competitions and on tracks that do not encourage fast bowlers. It's a vicious circle, that is made worse by the fact that since there are no Indian fast bowlers setting the world alight, there is a continued lack of role models, and a continued shortage of youngsters with a desire to bowl fast.
Indian culture plays a role too - Parents/Teachers/Coaches all generally raise kids to win and perform, in every single aspect. Education, Career and Sports. This mentality makes kids more obsessed with short-term success (getting picked for the school team, the uni team, the A team) rather than lofty long-term ambitions (being India's first ATG fast bowler), and they are more inclined to do what it takes to meet the arbitrary criteria of success set for them by their elders. It's a massive flaw in our education system too - the way we teach and assess kids in India means they study hard with the aim of achieving high grades, and not to actually learn anything. This seems to have seeped into our Cricket system. Young kids will do whatever their coaches and say and make sure they tick all the boxes in order to get selected for the next level, and won't risk being a eccentric, different, unorthodox cricketer if it means failure.
In contrast to this - Pakistan have a stronger culture of pace bowling, coaches/selectors who love quick bowlers, and less intense grass root cricket schedules, which allow for these young quicks to grow. Pakistani culture has also diverged from Indian culture in a sense that, possibly due to the political/social situation in the country, people seem to pay more attention to having fun and doing thing is a more stylish, artistic way than they do to purely achieving results.
The diet and genetics arguments are nonsense IMO. They vary so much across India itself, I(the average Punjabi or Pathan kid is probably as strong and fit as the average black/white one and just as capable of bowling quick) and the argument will only apply to the general population as a whole. We are talking International level cricket, and elite few cricketers out of the country of 800 billion. It is definitely possible to find a handful of kids with the physique to bowl fast in India.
My source: Grew up playing cricket with Indians and Pakistanis in Dubai. Was coached by an Indian coaches. It's shocking how, despite the fact that we grew up in the same country, with the same facilities and tournaments and the same diets, all the fast bowlers were inevitably Pakistani (or Sri Lankan, oddly enough).
Point 2 is from a nice article Akash Chopra wrote on this same topic, I'll dig it up later.
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Daemon
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800 billion...
The genetics thing is a valid argument imo, you've kinda admitted that it does make a difference in your post anyways by mentioning how the average Punjabi or Pathan kid is generally bigger than the rest. Unfortunately it's a very small percentage of the entire population of India.
the big bambino
International Captain
But it didn't. So he wasn't.
the big bambino
International Captain
Maybe we need a thread comparing Indian and Pakistani batsmen?
Actually Pakistan have a had their share of great batsmen so maybe not.
Actually Pakistan have a had their share of great batsmen so maybe not.
CricAddict
Cricketer Of The Year
TBB, you need to look at the OP again.
OverratedSanity
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None of Imran, Wasim, Waqar got a match winning 7-fer at Lord's. The disparity really is huge. Feel sorry for our neigbours sometimes
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subshakerz
Hall of Fame Member
The real reason is simple: Imran Khan. Until the 70s, Pakistan and India were pretty similar as far as cricketing traditions go, classical batsmen, spinners and the odd medium quality pacer in the early days. Imran Khan resisted demands to be a medium pacer, remodelling his action to be a true quality quick in England and Australia, and then became the fast-bowling inspiration, starting a legacy of Wasim, Waqar, etc.
Imran Khan was the aberration, the exception to the rule, and changed the course of Pakistan cricket.
Imran Khan was the aberration, the exception to the rule, and changed the course of Pakistan cricket.
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watson
Banned
Seems like an excellent point and I think that it's absolutely correct. But Kapil Dev was also a giant of the 1980s who influenced Indian cricket greatly at the time. Yet his legacy does not match Imran's. I'm wondering why?
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