How good is Sanga?

[Dan]

I suspect I'm going to declare Steyn the best of all time when his career ends.

He's got everything - simplicity but also intelligence and skill, can bowl a controlled spell of swing bowling or just lose his nut and send down a hostile spell. Icy calm with his plans yet emotional and expressive. Mixes style with substance.

Plus he looks genuinely pissed off whenever he has to bat. Just such a hero.

Closest thing to Marshall we've seen since, well, Marshall in that regard?

 

[Red]

, Ponting.... being mere side shows. In other words,.

Not sure about this. The #3 batsman in the greatest (imo) test team of all time (will concede that they may only be in the top 3 teams of all time to save a pedant taking it off the rails).

Dunno. For 4-5 years he was absolutely unbelievably ****ing awesome. And for the rest of the time he was outstandingly good.

In my eyes Ponting still sits above Sanga and Dravid as a #3, and given the choice between the three of them in an ATG thing I'd still take Ponting.

Ponting's only significant flaw is well know, against India in India. Other than that, he was a very consistent performer.

I'd add to that his well know reputation for big innings in the first innings of a series, something that set the tone for what was an all conquering team.

 

[OverratedSanity]

Steyn's record has seriously reached ridiculous proportions... The sheer quantity of wickets amazes me. He's always had very good bowlers alongside him and he's still over 5 wickets per match. Can anyone else in history match that? Lillee maybe?

 

[Red]

Lillee maybe?

 

[viriya]

Not sure about this. The #3 batsman in the greatest (imo) test team of all time (will concede that they may only be in the top 3 teams of all time to save a pedant taking it off the rails).

That Aussie team was most definitely the greatest Test team of all time.

 

[OverratedSanity]

Not sure about this. The #3 batsman in the greatest (imo) test team of all time (will concede that they may only be in the top 3 teams of all time to save a pedant taking it off the rails).

Dunno. For 4-5 years he was absolutely unbelievably ****ing awesome. And for the rest of the time he was outstandingly good.

In my eyes Ponting still sits above Sanga and Dravid as a #3, and given the choice between the three of them in an ATG thing I'd still take Ponting.

Ponting's only significant flaw is well know, against India in India. Other than that, he was a very consistent performer.

I'd add to that his well know reputation for big innings in the first innings of a series, something that set the tone for what was an all conquering team.

Regardless of his decline, Sachin-Lara-Ponting is still the holy trifecta for the generation.

 

[Red]

That Aussie team was most definitely the greatest Test team of all time.

Well, I think so, certainly the most well balanced of all time.

Will concede the early 80s WIs and the Invincibles could play a bit too though.

 

[watson]

Not sure about this. The #3 batsman in the greatest (imo) test team of all time (will concede that they may only be in the top 3 teams of all time to save a pedant taking it off the rails).

Dunno. For 4-5 years he was absolutely unbelievably ****ing awesome. And for the rest of the time he was outstandingly good.

In my eyes Ponting still sits above Sanga and Dravid as a #3, and given the choice between the three of them in an ATG thing I'd still take Ponting.

Ponting's only significant flaw is well know, against India in India. Other than that, he was a very consistent performer.

I'd add to that his well know reputation for big innings in the first innings of a series, something that set the tone for what was an all conquering team.

It will interesting to see what kind of legacy Ponting eventually leaves behind. In years from now will he be remembered for his golden run of 50 Tests when he averaged in the 70s, or merely as the batsman who tarnished his career by playing on past his used by date. Not to mention his failed Ashes campaigns in England. History can be cruel that way.

 

[Red]

It will interesting to see what kind of legacy Ponting eventually leaves behind. In years from now will he be remembered for his golden run of 50 Tests when he averaged in the 70s, or merely as the batsman who tarnished his career by playing on past his used by date. Not to mention his failed Ashes campaigns in England. History can be cruel that way.

History certainly can. I pushed thru Ponting's biography over the last few weeks. Bit of a struggle tbh and he hardly went into the stuff that would've interested me, but one thing I will say is he is pretty selfless. I think he knew he was declining as a batsman, but he felt a strong obligation to stay and help rebuild a team that had dropped off significantly (at the expense of having a much better statistical record for himself).

When he informed Clarke he was retiring, Clarke evidently pushed him really strongly to stay, clearly acknowledging that his leadership and presence was still important in the group.

I think ideally, Ponting would have finished in 2010, and Katich would've played on as Clarke's "senior player" for a few more years or as form allowed. Obviously circumstances and personalities conspired against this happening.

Ponting talks a fair bit about how difficult he found seeing Hayden, Langer, Martyn, Gilchrist, Warne and McGrath disappear fairly rapidly from the group, but he clearly put his own interests aside to play on for the team's benefit.

 

[RossTaylorsBox]

It's funny how people use that ridiculous runs scored in wins stat to prove whatever point they have at the time and then conveniently point to performances like Dravid's in England 2011 when they have a different agenda in mind.

Agreed, any "runs in wins" stat is terrible and proves nothing.

 

[kyear2]

It seems that I'm in the minority here but for me, Ponting and Dravid still > Sanga.

The gap is closing though, very quickly

For me Sangakkara is clearly now ahead of Dravid and Kallis. I still think Ponting is still ahead of him, but not by much.

 

[Jono]

Why clearly ahead, as opposed to even?

Not saying its a crazy opinion, but just wondering. I remember when Kallis was God-like in 2011 everyone suddenly had him ahead of Ponting. Then suddenly he's behind him again.

Sanga will be properly judged end of his career one feels.

 

[kyear2]

Closest thing to Marshall we've seen since, well, Marshall in that regard?

McGrath comes close in terms of effectiveness, but yea. Steyn has become a phenomenal legitimate top gold tier fast bowler, and he has moved into my 2nd ATG XI ahead of Lillee.

Guy is just special.

Truly honored to be witness to two ATG's still at their peak

 

[kyear2]

That Aussie team was most definitely the greatest Test team of all time.

Think I will still say the '84 West Indies team, but definitely top 2. Invincibles and those '70's S.A teams next.

 

[Dan]

McGrath comes close in terms of effectiveness, but yea. Steyn has become a phenomenal legitimate top gold tier fast bowler, and he has moved into my 2nd ATG XI ahead of Lillee.

Guy is just special.

Truly honored to be witness to two ATG's still at their peak

Talking about the style of bowler more than anything else -- relatively short (by fast bowler standards), skiddy, genuinely quick but often bowl within themselves to exploit swing and conditions, very accurate, capable of taking a batsman's head off if necessary, aggressive and seriously freaking good at what they do.

McGrath was a very different style of fast bowler to the comparison I'm trying to draw out. Which neither makes him better nor worse than Steyn or Marshall, just a different operator.

 

[kyear2]

Why clearly ahead, as opposed to even?

Not saying its a crazy opinion, but just wondering. I remember when Kallis was God-like in 2011 everyone suddenly had him ahead of Ponting. Then suddenly he's behind him again.

Sanga will be properly judged end of his career one feels.

Was never part of the Kallis bandwagon.

 

[kyear2]

Talking about the style of bowler more than anything else -- relatively short (by fast bowler standards), skiddy, genuinely quick but often bowl within themselves to exploit swing and conditions, very accurate, capable of taking a batsman's head off if necessary, aggressive and seriously freaking good at what they do.

McGrath was a very different style of fast bowler to the comparison I'm trying to draw out. Which neither makes him better nor worse than Steyn or Marshall, just a different operator.

Understood what you meant, which is why I said in terms of (just) effectiveness McGrath would be there. Main difference between Marshall and Steyn though is that Marshall was quicker. Marshall was genuine express, other wise yes, totally agree.

 

[Dan]

Ah, I didn't see the 'but yea' in your post

Was Marshall really that much quicker? Steyn operates at 150 when he wants to, and no offence intended but I don't see Marshall being significantly quicker than that -- do you just reckon Marshall's stock ball in the low 140s while Steyn's tends to be in the high 130s?

 

[marc71178]

Good point, Lara is obviously in that same conversation, and if you matched Sanga's % of Test innings vs common opposition to Lara's to make Ban/Zim a non-factor (ignoring vs WI for Sanga and vs SL for Lara to make it a clean comparison):
Sanga averages 50.47
Lara averages 50.84
..so there's hardly any difference.

"Common opposition" is irrelevant when they didn't play at the same time, so didn't face the same actual bowlers (for example Lara faced a lot more McGrath and Warne)

However, seeing as Lara's record against SL is rather good and by doing that you manage to remove quite possible his best series, I can see why you've done it.

 

[viriya]

"Common opposition" is irrelevant when they didn't play at the same time, so didn't face the same actual bowlers (for example Lara faced a lot more McGrath and Warne)

However, seeing as Lara's record against SL is rather good and by doing that you manage to remove quite possible his best series, I can see why you've done it.

I did it to make it common opposition. Now you're nit picking after I did you a favor by giving you those stats. It also doesn't help that Sanga's best was vs Pak and that gets diminished when this is done, or that his worst was vs Eng and that gets amplified.