***Official*** New Zealand in the West Indies 2014

[Blocky]

I don't know why...but i just have a feeling this 2nd game is gonna be a serious dogfight. We simply cannot play any worse at than we did in that 1st test...and i think we're gonna ask NZ some major questions this time...we'll see if they have the answers.

I don't know why either.

Honestly, you need New Zealand to basically play bad for the West Indies to have a chance. You're relying on an inform batting line up ( Latham, Williamson, Taylor, McCullum, Neesham, Watling ) to get itself out to a bowling line up that is unproven in test cricket (especially with Shilly not able to bowl his doosra) and for a batting line up that outside of Chanderpaul, doesn't know what hard graft means to be able to stand up against a pretty good side of bowlers.

Could I see the Windies battling out a draw in the right conditions? Yes. But it would take a monumental screw up from New Zealand to give the Windies a chance. NZ are just on a better level now - NZ will compete with pretty much any side that isn't South Africa or an in-form Johnson lead Australia.

 

[hendrix]

Boult has taken plenty of wickets in conditions that don't suit.

The issue isn't his ability, it's that he was trying to do too much. He needs to go back to what made him so successful in the first place - accuracy with swing. Stop trying to recreate the magic balls of the Basin test and be a bit more patient.

He has the control to do that.

It's probably more due to the fact he hasn't played cricket in a while. I'm expecting him to be much better in the second test.

 

[ohnoitsyou]

Even when Boult goes searching he still puts more balls in good areas than Wagner. Boult also has more pace and lands the ball on the seam more. Wagner is a good third bowler, but he's not the spearhead Boult is. Isn't that the match where Sharma took a 10-for, ie it was assisting seamers a **** tonne.

 

[Blocky]

Boult has taken plenty of wickets in conditions that don't suit.

The issue isn't his ability, it's that he was trying to do too much. He needs to go back to what made him so successful in the first place - accuracy with swing. Stop trying to recreate the magic balls of the Basin test and be a bit more patient.

He has the control to do that.

It's probably more due to the fact he hasn't played cricket in a while. I'm expecting him to be much better in the second test.

Name a test where Boult has been effective when there isn't pace off the pitch and swing in the air. Bangladesh, India, West Indies - they've been his struggle countries. South Africa was more down to the opposition than conditions. In places like Australia, New Zealand, England and Sri Lanka where it's known to swing, he bowls brilliantly.

 

[ohnoitsyou]

I don't know why either.

Honestly, you need New Zealand to basically play bad for the West Indies to have a chance. You're relying on an inform batting line up ( Latham, Williamson, Taylor, McCullum, Neesham, Watling ) to get itself out to a bowling line up that is unproven in test cricket (especially with Shilly not able to bowl his doosra) and for a batting line up that outside of Chanderpaul, doesn't know what hard graft means to be able to stand up against a pretty good side of bowlers.

Could I see the Windies battling out a draw in the right conditions? Yes. But it would take a monumental screw up from New Zealand to give the Windies a chance. NZ are just on a better level now - NZ will compete with pretty much any side that isn't South Africa or an in-form Johnson lead Australia.

At the risk of repeating myself:

At least we now have someone to blame if we get rolled...

 

[ohnoitsyou]

Name a test where Boult has been effective when there isn't pace off the pitch and swing in the air.

Thats the thing about Boult (and Southee). They find swing in the air when even the likes of Jimmey Anderson can't and Wagner is struggling to land the ball upright.

 

[Blocky]

At the risk of repeating myself:

Stop being pessimistic and expecting the old New Zealand to show up everytime they play cricket.

 

[Blocky]

Thats the thing about Boult (and Southee). They find swing in the air when even the likes of Jimmey Anderson can't and Wagner is struggling to land the ball upright.

Boult got early swing in this test, but wasn't getting it to reverse like Southee would've - and neither bowler gets reverse as quickly as Wagner had been getting it this season. It's not a comparison of Boult vs Wagner, it's simply a statement that Wagner would've done more in the conditions than Boult did. You seem to be forgetting Wagner's most recent season as well as the fact that Boult doesn't take wickets on dust bowls.

 

[Hurricane]

Blocky's in the house.

 

[ohnoitsyou]

Stop being pessimistic and expecting the old New Zealand to show up everytime they play cricket.

Our top order got rolled as soon their bowlers remembered how to bowl and the WI have ditched their junk while we have held onto ours. Theres no way the next game is going to be so one sided.

 

[hendrix]

Boult got early swing in this test, but wasn't getting it to reverse like Southee would've - and neither bowler gets reverse as quickly as Wagner had been getting it this season. It's not a comparison of Boult vs Wagner, it's simply a statement that Wagner would've done more in the conditions than Boult did. You seem to be forgetting Wagner's most recent season as well as the fact that Boult doesn't take wickets on dust bowls.

recent season? He had 2 good tests. He was in danger of being dropped before them.

Wagner doesn't reverse swing the ball more than Southee and Boult. He barely swings the ball because his seam position is usually junk. I think I've seen him reverse swing it once.

 

[ohnoitsyou]

Boult got early swing in this test, but wasn't getting it to reverse like Southee would've - and neither bowler gets reverse as quickly as Wagner had been getting it this season. It's not a comparison of Boult vs Wagner, it's simply a statement that Wagner would've done more in the conditions than Boult did. You seem to be forgetting Wagner's most recent season as well as the fact that Boult doesn't take wickets on dust bowls.

Southee was getting reverse well before the 30th over and Boult was getting a touch as well. People have been saying that about Wagner since as soon as he came onto the scene, he's never managed to get the same amount of reverse as Southee has in any test match. Boult doesn't take hauls on dustbowls you mean, ie he doesn't bowl short and wide enough to get slapped straight to backwards point.

 

[Howsie]

Actually, he's had a few games like this in his career. It's not like the knives are out, but he doesn't know how to take wickets when conditions don't suit - kind of like Anderson. I do love the hyperbole though, you mention that Boult needs to learn how to bowl when conditions don't suit and bring up the fact that he was pretty toothless in this game and people think you're saying he's done and dusted. They'll also take "Wagner plays better in conditions that don't suit swing" to mean "Wagner is the better bowler"

Wow, he's had a few bad games in his career, I am shocked.

I'm taking Boult everyday of the week over Wagner, and then some. He's a nuffy who can't even get the basics of fast bowling right, land the ball on the seam. The minute we find someone even half decent he'll be out on his ass. I'm actually shocked Wagner has managed the record he has for himself so far in test cricket, 50 wickets @ 35 is a bloody good achievement for a bowler of his ability (or lack thereof)

He is total puss.

 

[Blocky]

Our top order got rolled as soon there bowlers remembered how to bowl and the WI have ditched their junk while we have held onto ours. Theres no way the next game is going to be so one sided.

As the Windies showed in their second innings, it wasn't the bowlers, it was the wicket. NZ will crush the Windies in this test series. If they don't, they've failed miserably. As you'd expect when one side is relatively settled for the core of its players and the other side isn't (and has a new captain)

recent season? He had 2 good tests. He was in danger of being dropped before them.

Wagner doesn't reverse swing the ball more than Southee and Boult. He barely swings the ball because his seam position is usually junk. I think I've seen him reverse swing it once.

Really can't be bothered bringing up the list of batsman that Wagner dismissed nor how many of them were the top order, if you want to go back to your "Wagner is ****" rants - feel free. I'll laugh at your ignorance this summer just as I did the last one.

Southee was getting reverse well before the 30th over and Boult was getting a touch as well. People have been saying that about Wagner since as soon as he came onto the scene, he's never managed to get the same amount of reverse as Southee has in any test match. Boult doesn't take hauls on dustbowls you mean, ie he doesn't bowl short and wide enough to get slapped straight to backwards point.

Boult wasn't exactly "cheap" in the context of this game. Does he bowl the rubbish that Wagner has bowled in his past? Nope, but that's the past. Wagner showed last season he was the guy to take the tough wickets and the guy to break through when the others couldn't - as a three pronged attack they work well together, but make no bones about it, Wagner will take more wickets on these types of pitches than Boult will until Boult learns how to bowl to plans and not just use his ability to bowl some unplayable deliveries when conditions suit.

 

[Blocky]

Wow, he's had a few bad games in his career, I am shocked.

I'm taking Boult everyday of the week over Wagner, and then some. He's a nuffy who can't even get the basics of fast bowling right, land the ball on the seam. The minute we find someone even half decent he'll be out on his ass. I'm actually shocked Wagner has managed the record he has for himself so far in test cricket, 50 wickets @ 35 is a bloody good achievement for a bowler of his ability (or lack thereof)

He is total puss.

Yeah, I recall you saying something similar when Wagner ripped India apart and took Dhawan and Kohli (the two best performing players) out within overs of one another to gift NZ the win here at home.

 

[Flem274*]

Nah Wagner can bowl. He's no Henry or Big Bev but he bowled genuinely well in Bangladesh and against India. Even during his meltdown against the Windies he had good spells. Blocky is just making his point as dickishly as he can so it's hard to swallow.

I don't think he's one of our best three quicks but he's putting in good performances so who cares. I admire him a bit tbh. He's not overly quick, accurate or tall and his seam position is a work in progress. Yet despite that he finds ways to get good batsmen out (Chanderpaul, KP, lil' Bravo). I think it's his aggressive lengths. When he's on song he's a difficult customer, but his control over his line can change in the space of a few balls.

But I'll still take Boult over him in any conditions.

 

[Blocky]

But I'll still take Boult over him in any conditions.

http://www.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/match/730587.html

I wouldn't.

 

[Flem274*]

Tour Match: Jamaica Select XI v New Zealanders at Florence Hall, May 29-30, 2014 | Cricket Scorecard | ESPN Cricinfo

I wouldn't.

Not sure how linking to a lottery where Boult took more wickets anyway helps your point?

 

[ohnoitsyou]

As the Windies showed in their second innings, it wasn't the bowlers, it was the wicket. NZ will crush the Windies in this test series. If they don't, they've failed miserably. As you'd expect when one side is relatively settled for the core of its players and the other side isn't (and has a new captain)



Really can't be bothered bringing up the list of batsman that Wagner dismissed nor how many of them were the top order, if you want to go back to your "Wagner is ****" rants - feel free. I'll laugh at your ignorance this summer just as I did the last one.



Boult wasn't exactly "cheap" in the context of this game. Does he bowl the rubbish that Wagner has bowled in his past? Nope, but that's the past. Wagner showed last season he was the guy to take the tough wickets and the guy to break through when the others couldn't - as a three pronged attack they work well together, but make no bones about it, Wagner will take more wickets on these types of pitches than Boult will until Boult learns how to bowl to plans and not just use his ability to bowl some unplayable deliveries when conditions suit.

In the first innings where we scored big Roach was utter ****. Second innings he came right and our top order imploded. There was barely anything in the pitch, in fact i would say it was one of those dustbowls that Wagner seems to love.

Yeah i'm always surprised by the amount of top order batsmen who chip the ball straight to fielders too.

Wagner still bowls that rubbish, he just bowls more good balls in-between. Boult already knows how to bowl to plans and hit line and length, (as opposed to Wagner who is seemingly unable to) he's done it in the past and he will do it again.

 

[Blocky]

Not sure how linking to a lottery where Boult took more wickets anyway helps your point?

Was meant to be the previous match - so far, prematch form indicates that Boult wasn't exactly ripping through them - Wagner however did. We're also seeing that Craig's prematch form is relevant.