WindieWeathers
International Regular
Didn't play with soft hands and just stuck his bat forward...which to me is rash but i get what you're saying.
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***Official*** New Zealand in the West Indies 2014
- Thread starter Hurricane
- Start date
Prince EWS
Global Moderator
WindieWeathers
International Regular
I watched 100% of Kane's innings aswell...and imo at the start of Benn's spell Kane was all over the place and as lucky that balls were going over the stumps and just about beating his bat...he had no idea which way the ball was going imo.
WindieWeathers
International Regular
If Kohli and Darren Bravo aren't averaging 50 yet, and lets be fair both are better talents than Kane at this moment, then it's gonna be hard to see how Kane gets there...but we'll see..he'll certainly need to improve his record in England and SA if he is to get there.
ohnoitsyou
International Regular
Still possible but might just have to settle with a player just a bit behind Sobers.
ohnoitsyou
International Regular
Which most players who are new to the crease tend to do
hendrix
Hall of Fame Member
Agreed.
He's not a better batsman than Ross Taylor either, and Taylor's average is significantly higher.
50+ is likely a step too far. Late 40s would be lovely.
Flem274*
123/5
Right, so this post is written from the perspective of judging Ross Taylor by world, not New Zealand, standards, why I think he's a bit of a hometown hero and what he needs to do to be a great. I might also compare him to Crowe a bit. Not because Taylor is better (he isn't), but because Taylor is in the middle of his career and he wants to break the records his mentor set.
I've already written why I think he makes the New Zealand all time eleven and is our best batsman since Martin Crowe, so I won't do so again. I've also posted about his uncanny knack of only scoring hundreds when he walks to the crease with the team score below 100.
His record at home probably surmounts every other batsman we've produced. He has 2365 @ 59.12 in tests in New Zealand. That's almost 10 runs ahead of Crowe and Crowe only scored 36 more runs in New Zealand from five more tests. Taylor has 8 hundreds at home. So does Crowe.
Taylor has played two of his most memorable innings away from home. He announced himself to the world at Manchester. I can still remember lying awake listening to the radio. We were getting smashed. Oram couldn't pick the short balls. Flynn lost his teeth. Taylor was playing a different match. The English didn't have an answer to him. Fast forward four years to a time when Taylor walks o the crease to join Williamson at 10/2 knowing he has been deposed as the skipper, knowing Hesson wants no bar of him, knowing the knives are out after the first test humiliation. Taylor scores a hundred. In the second innings the team collapses. Taylor scores 75 before being run out by Southee. New Zealand win the game. Taylor gets deposed anyway.
But he only has 3 hundreds away from home (the two innings above and a counter attacking knock against India, also as skipper) and he averages 36 away. He averages 29 in Australia with no hundreds. He made his test debut in South Africa and averages 11 there. He refused to tour the next time the team traveled there because of his mental state after the captaincy saga. He has been mediocre in India and the West Indies, averaging 32 and 36 respectively. His only good touring countries are England (42), Sri Lanka (50) and Zimbabwe (76). Not even Bangladesh has been kind to him.
From what I've gathered, a number of people seem to favour players averaging at least 40 everywhere for them to qualify for great status (along with a 50 average). Taylor doesn't, and his overall record against the long term best attack of his day (South Africa) isn't flash. South Africa (30), Australia (36) and Bangladesh (35) are the only two countries he averages less than 40 overall against. He's succeeded against the best spinners but only some of the world class fast bowlers, and not consistently. He dealt with Jimmy Anderson at Manchester and Ryan Harris at Hamilton (a game which also featured Doug Bollinger and old Johnson) in style, but not enough to bulk his record.
In contrast, Crowe averages 40+ against everyone except India (35) and South Africa (20), and he faced South Africa right at the end of his career when his knee was done. Crowe was a mixed tourist, averaging 16 in India, 29 in Sri Lanka and 30 in the West Indies (down 15 runs from his overall average against the West Indies - he really must have enjoyed his home series against them). Crowe has 9 hundreds away from home at an average of 42.
Taylor is in his prime now. He averages 59 since the start of 2012. He's averaging 45 away and a hilarious 8 ****ing 4 at home. He's scored all these runs despite this being quite a tumultuous period for his career where he was considering quitting if you believe Martin Crowe. He's been mediocre against England, though he improved as the home and away double header went on. He has a ton and nothing else from 3 tests against India (1 at home, 2 away). He had his crowning moment against Sri Lanka and he put the West Indies to the sword. While he averaged 57 in the home series with 171 runs against South Africa he didn't pass 50 and his averaged is boosted by a 48*. They also broke his arm. That 48* in partnership with McCullum (who was elevated to number three) was crucial to drawing the match, but Taylor spent most of that series getting to 40 and getting out (which explains the strangely high series average).
The next few years will determine whether he is remembered as just very good or something more imo. Almost everything is in his favour - he has partners who can help him, bowlers who can skittle any opposition and he has over 50 tests to his name. He just needs a pair of bloody openers ahead of him. between 2008 - 2012 Ross Taylor was the New Zealand top six. He soaked up that pressure and performed. They made him captain. He kept performing. Now he has a chance to show he is New Zealand's best ever, and a true all time great.
Do I think he can do it? Yes. Is the previous answer blind love? Yes. Do I think it will happen? Probably not. I don't know when we tour Australia and South Africa again and his technique is more flair based in the Ponting mould than a mechanic like Jacques Kallis. Taylor will decline at an earlier age than someone like Williamson will. Since Sri Lanka he's added a bit of the merciless accumulator to his game, which will help.
I don't give a **** though, which is funny because I began writing this post as a checklist for things Ross needs to do to be an all time great. I think he will be remembered in the same way we remember Kevin Pietersen, VVS Laxman and his mentor Martin Crowe: they don't have all time great numbers but they left us with all time great memories. Nothing changes Taylor was the main man in our batting line up starting from his 6th test match. He rose to the challenge. He has played so many memorable knocks against good bowling attacks, and he will keep doing so until he retires.
I'd love him to get all the pretty statistics to his name but I love him as he is - the back to the wall pressure sponge who puts good bowlers through the covers, who pokes his tongue out at every milestone and pulls weird faces while stumbling over his words in press conferences afterwards.
I've already written why I think he makes the New Zealand all time eleven and is our best batsman since Martin Crowe, so I won't do so again. I've also posted about his uncanny knack of only scoring hundreds when he walks to the crease with the team score below 100.
His record at home probably surmounts every other batsman we've produced. He has 2365 @ 59.12 in tests in New Zealand. That's almost 10 runs ahead of Crowe and Crowe only scored 36 more runs in New Zealand from five more tests. Taylor has 8 hundreds at home. So does Crowe.
Taylor has played two of his most memorable innings away from home. He announced himself to the world at Manchester. I can still remember lying awake listening to the radio. We were getting smashed. Oram couldn't pick the short balls. Flynn lost his teeth. Taylor was playing a different match. The English didn't have an answer to him. Fast forward four years to a time when Taylor walks o the crease to join Williamson at 10/2 knowing he has been deposed as the skipper, knowing Hesson wants no bar of him, knowing the knives are out after the first test humiliation. Taylor scores a hundred. In the second innings the team collapses. Taylor scores 75 before being run out by Southee. New Zealand win the game. Taylor gets deposed anyway.
But he only has 3 hundreds away from home (the two innings above and a counter attacking knock against India, also as skipper) and he averages 36 away. He averages 29 in Australia with no hundreds. He made his test debut in South Africa and averages 11 there. He refused to tour the next time the team traveled there because of his mental state after the captaincy saga. He has been mediocre in India and the West Indies, averaging 32 and 36 respectively. His only good touring countries are England (42), Sri Lanka (50) and Zimbabwe (76). Not even Bangladesh has been kind to him.
From what I've gathered, a number of people seem to favour players averaging at least 40 everywhere for them to qualify for great status (along with a 50 average). Taylor doesn't, and his overall record against the long term best attack of his day (South Africa) isn't flash. South Africa (30), Australia (36) and Bangladesh (35) are the only two countries he averages less than 40 overall against. He's succeeded against the best spinners but only some of the world class fast bowlers, and not consistently. He dealt with Jimmy Anderson at Manchester and Ryan Harris at Hamilton (a game which also featured Doug Bollinger and old Johnson) in style, but not enough to bulk his record.
In contrast, Crowe averages 40+ against everyone except India (35) and South Africa (20), and he faced South Africa right at the end of his career when his knee was done. Crowe was a mixed tourist, averaging 16 in India, 29 in Sri Lanka and 30 in the West Indies (down 15 runs from his overall average against the West Indies - he really must have enjoyed his home series against them). Crowe has 9 hundreds away from home at an average of 42.
Taylor is in his prime now. He averages 59 since the start of 2012. He's averaging 45 away and a hilarious 8 ****ing 4 at home. He's scored all these runs despite this being quite a tumultuous period for his career where he was considering quitting if you believe Martin Crowe. He's been mediocre against England, though he improved as the home and away double header went on. He has a ton and nothing else from 3 tests against India (1 at home, 2 away). He had his crowning moment against Sri Lanka and he put the West Indies to the sword. While he averaged 57 in the home series with 171 runs against South Africa he didn't pass 50 and his averaged is boosted by a 48*. They also broke his arm. That 48* in partnership with McCullum (who was elevated to number three) was crucial to drawing the match, but Taylor spent most of that series getting to 40 and getting out (which explains the strangely high series average).
The next few years will determine whether he is remembered as just very good or something more imo. Almost everything is in his favour - he has partners who can help him, bowlers who can skittle any opposition and he has over 50 tests to his name. He just needs a pair of bloody openers ahead of him. between 2008 - 2012 Ross Taylor was the New Zealand top six. He soaked up that pressure and performed. They made him captain. He kept performing. Now he has a chance to show he is New Zealand's best ever, and a true all time great.
Do I think he can do it? Yes. Is the previous answer blind love? Yes. Do I think it will happen? Probably not. I don't know when we tour Australia and South Africa again and his technique is more flair based in the Ponting mould than a mechanic like Jacques Kallis. Taylor will decline at an earlier age than someone like Williamson will. Since Sri Lanka he's added a bit of the merciless accumulator to his game, which will help.
I don't give a **** though, which is funny because I began writing this post as a checklist for things Ross needs to do to be an all time great. I think he will be remembered in the same way we remember Kevin Pietersen, VVS Laxman and his mentor Martin Crowe: they don't have all time great numbers but they left us with all time great memories. Nothing changes Taylor was the main man in our batting line up starting from his 6th test match. He rose to the challenge. He has played so many memorable knocks against good bowling attacks, and he will keep doing so until he retires.
I'd love him to get all the pretty statistics to his name but I love him as he is - the back to the wall pressure sponge who puts good bowlers through the covers, who pokes his tongue out at every milestone and pulls weird faces while stumbling over his words in press conferences afterwards.
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Mike5181
International Captain
Kane Williamson is 23 years old. It's nonsensical to compare him to the Ross Taylor of now, as they're in totally different stages of their careers. The latter is in his prime as a batsman. What was his record at test level when he was 23? He had only played three test matches before his 24th birthday, and averaged 28. Williamson is looking comfortable now, and we probably won't see the best out of him until he's in that 28-32 age range. He's averaging close to 70 in the last year, and I think that's a sign that he's starting to feel comfortable at this level.
I actually think Kohli is a class above the other two, but I haven't seen enough of Bravo to really make a judgement.
I've seen one ball of this Test (Neesh's ton) so forgive me this...no idea where the ball was going out of Benn's hand?!?!?
The Benn I knew bowled two balls - the arm ball that didn't turn from height and the orthodox ball that didn't turn from height. One slightly quicker than the other.
Kippax is dead to me now, he hasn't given me my sweet video candy fix in quite some time and I'm getting sweats.
Mike5181
International Captain
Flem274*
123/5
search his posts in this thread and you'll find todays highlights.
marc71178
Eyes not spreadsheets
I believe that if Shillingford "bowls" a doosra or Samuels "bowls" a quick ball they're banned from bowling for a year, not just a match.
Beamer
International Vice-Captain
I'm looking forward to seeing how today pans out but conclusion thus far is that New Zealand batted defensively but well given the circumstances and that the batting lineup needed a good start to the tour. West Indies bowled okishly for the most part but Benn was disappointing and Roach way too short of match practice.
But the pitch is slooooooooooow and flat so I won't be surprised if we reply in kind. Because New Zealand were very slow, if we bat out a day and a session in our first innings that will pretty much be that IMHO. I thought CG looked pretty good last night. This is West Indies though so who knows what will happen, we could be following on before the close of play.
But the pitch is slooooooooooow and flat so I won't be surprised if we reply in kind. Because New Zealand were very slow, if we bat out a day and a session in our first innings that will pretty much be that IMHO. I thought CG looked pretty good last night. This is West Indies though so who knows what will happen, we could be following on before the close of play.
Flem274*
123/5
I didn't get to watch the second days play Beamer beyond the highlights but I agree with your assessment of the bowling. I don't think the pitch was too bad on day 1 though. There was enough for the spinners. It was just a case of one hole in the attack sinking the ship. Roach was relieving all JT's pressure and it resulted in plenty of Marlon Samuels and an over of Darren Bravo. Benn looked tired at the end of the day too, but I'm not sure whether it was poor fitness or Roach falling apart that caused his slip in standard.
Plug the leak and I think the West Indies would have had a much better chance of putting in a respectable performance despite the resolve NZ showed.
That and diving to save boundaries. So many balls touching the rope with the fielder's boot one foot away...
Plug the leak and I think the West Indies would have had a much better chance of putting in a respectable performance despite the resolve NZ showed.
That and diving to save boundaries. So many balls touching the rope with the fielder's boot one foot away...