***Official*** New Zealand in the West Indies 2014

[ohnoitsyou]

@WW. Lets see your money where your mouth is.

Avatar bet for 3 months that Southee and Boult will take more wickets at a lower average than Roach and an accompanying pick of your choice. One month for just more wickets.

 

[WindieWeathers]

have you been reading anything anyone has written or are you just having a conversation with yourself?

Lol i know the popular excuse is "he was poor at the start" but i don't see anyone here letting Roach off the hook for his stats in India and Bang despite him being injured back then and only playing one game in each country .

 

[WindieWeathers]

@WW. Lets see your money where your mouth is.

Avatar bet for 3 months that Southee and Boult will take more wickets at a lower average than Roach and an accompanying pick of your choice. One month for just more wickets.

Tough one...Southee and Boult are likely to be NZ'a main weapons while Roach is gonna have Taylor, Narine and Shilly/Benn for competition..i'll think about it .

 

[hendrix]

Lol i know the popular excuse is "he was poor at the start" but i don't see anyone here letting Roach off the hook for his stats in India and Bang despite him being injured back then and only playing one game in each country .

it's not an excuse if he's completely dominated for two years and there's a very clear difference between pre-2012 Southee.

Anyway, if that's an excuse what's an injury and one game in each country if not an excuse?

 

[WindieWeathers]

it's not an excuse if he's completely dominated for two years and there's a very clear difference between pre-2012 Southee.

Anyway, if that's an excuse what's an injury and one game in each country if not an excuse?

All i'm saying is you can't judge Roach and then turn a blind eye to Southee's poor record at the start...that's not fair.

Also yes the guy has been very good for two years...but lets remember in 2012 Roach had the best strike rate of ANY PACER at test level..so Roach has dominated too.

 

[Maximas]

Southee's pre-2012 stats are irrelevant, pretty much every aspect of his bowling has improved dramatically since then and the stats prove it, there is no indication that he will suddenly revert back to what he was like 3 years ago

 

[Beamer]

Wowsers, I wake up to find this thread has advanced 4 pages and we're still having silly debates about individual players! It is pretty obvious to me tbh.

- Shiv is better than Taylor by a country mile, form or no form.
- Southee and Boult are both better than Roach as it stands, particularly as Kemar has been injured for a about a year. We might be having a different discussion in a few weeks or so if Kemar gets it right but all evidence points to them both being likely to perform better than Roach in this series.
- Watling and Ramdin cancel each other out with their record since Watling has started test cricket and it is basically impossible to separate them, it just comes down to your nationality as to which one you think is better basically

Surely we can move on? There's some pretty exciting cricket coming up and I for one am looking forward to the first series in a long while that I won't be complaining about us playing with 10 men .

 

[Dan]

All i'm saying is you can't judge Roach and then turn a blind eye to Southee's poor record at the start...that's not fair.

That was for a completely different comparison with a completely different bowler.

Christ, I've never met a more one-eyed flagwaver who literally cannot have a discussion unless any semblance of its rationality is stripped bare by a self-parodic commitment to nationalism.

It's just pointless even attempting to discuss something even tangentially related to West Indies cricket, because every thread devolves into this **** where you feel the need to defend your group of nations' honour against anyone who dare rate a non-West Indian highly, or not rate one of your favourites (i.e. any West Indian). It's beyond a joke. It ruins the forum atmosphere and it's intellectually dishonest.

And what makes it even more frustrating is the fact (and I don't call these things facts lightly, let alone bold them) that you can add so much to discussion with your obvious knowledge of West Indian cricket. If you could set aside this nationalistic crap you'd be a huge asset to the forum; and when you're not beating your chest over the latest West Indian flavour of the month that you believe is going to become an ATG, you seem like a pretty decent bloke as well. It's infuriating that we can't have an actual, constructive discussion about anything.

Rant over.

 

[Flem274*]

I for one am looking forward to the first series in a long while that I won't be complaining about us playing with 10 men .

don't be mean to deonarine

 

[WindieWeathers]

That was for a completely different comparison with a completely different bowler.

Christ, I've never met a more one-eyed flagwaver who literally cannot have a discussion unless any semblance of its rationality is stripped bare by a self-parodic commitment to nationalism.

It's just pointless even attempting to discuss something even tangentially related to West Indies cricket, because every thread devolves into this **** where you feel the need to defend your group of nations' honour against anyone who dare rate a non-West Indian highly, or not rate one of your favourites (i.e. any West Indian). It's beyond a joke. It ruins the forum atmosphere and it's intellectually dishonest.

And what makes it even more frustrating is the fact (and I don't call these things facts lightly, let alone bold them) that you can add so much to discussion with your obvious knowledge of West Indian cricket. If you could set aside this nationalistic crap you'd be a huge asset to the forum; and when you're not beating your chest over the latest West Indian flavour of the month that you believe is going to become an ATG, you seem like a pretty decent bloke as well. It's infuriating that we can't have an actual, constructive discussion about anything.

Rant over.

I respect your opinion and as everyone knows i've worked hard over the last few years to change my ways and become a better poster. But Dan surely you can see that there's not just one person in the room here?...people saying "Williamson better than Bravo"..."Taylor better than Chanderpaul"..."Roach nowhere near Southee and Boult" etc...if that's not "flag waving" then i really don't know what is. Also if you take a look back you'll find i've actually praised Boult and Southee several times...why wouldn't i? they have been excellent over the last few years, i also said i supported NZ during their series against India...but i still have the opinion that man for man our attack will be the better one in our conditions during this series...am i not allowed to express that in fear of being accused of "flag waving"? someone asked me if Roach is better than Anderson and i said "not on fast tracks"..i can see the wood from the trees my friend, but sometimes it seems like people don't want to let my past go.

In closing we disagreed about Narine and you had a pop at me then...all i want to do is abide by the forum rules and be myself...not everyone is gonna agree on things but lets not go overboard, this place is for good debate and i think the discussions we've had here and on the Narine thread have been lively and informative..and that's the way it should be...i'm not bitter with anyone and i'm looking forward to more debates during this series.

 

[WindieWeathers]

The key for me in this series is seeing the team without Sammy dragging them down...all WI are very excited to see that.

 

[Hurricane]

The key for me in this series is seeing the team without Sammy dragging them down...all WI are very excited to see that.

Sorry if this is a lame question WW and Beamer - but how excited is the West Indies about this series? And how important a sport is cricket in the year 2014 to the people?

 

[WindieWeathers]

Sorry if this is a lame question WW and Beamer - but how excited is the West Indies about this series? And how important a sport is cricket in the year 2014 to the people?

Not a lame question at all Hurricane..I think the crowds should be decent for this series..especially in the evening when people have finished work... there's this peception us caribbean folks "aren't into cricket anymore" and "other sports have taken the hearts of the youngsters" etc but i think it's way overblown...you listen to the cricket radio and TV shows and people are still passionate all over the region..then you have packed houses for the CPL games and there was good crowds in our last home series vs Zimbabwe...so i expect some decent crowds so turn up...but of course like any fanbase you can lose inspiration when your team lose alot..but that hasn't been the case at home recently so it's all good .

 

[Kippax]

Their Sunday newspapers were still pretty packed with cricket I noticed.

Much more attentive reporting of third-tier and fourth-tier club cricket than you'd see NZ publications doing, on even our second-tier cricket.

 

[OverratedSanity]

That was for a completely different comparison with a completely different bowler.

Christ, I've never met a more one-eyed flagwaver who literally cannot have a discussion unless any semblance of its rationality is stripped bare by a self-parodic commitment to nationalism.

It's just pointless even attempting to discuss something even tangentially related to West Indies cricket, because every thread devolves into this **** where you feel the need to defend your group of nations' honour against anyone who dare rate a non-West Indian highly, or not rate one of your favourites (i.e. any West Indian). It's beyond a joke. It ruins the forum atmosphere and it's intellectually dishonest.

And what makes it even more frustrating is the fact (and I don't call these things facts lightly, let alone bold them) that you can add so much to discussion with your obvious knowledge of West Indian cricket. If you could set aside this nationalistic crap you'd be a huge asset to the forum; and when you're not beating your chest over the latest West Indian flavour of the month that you believe is going to become an ATG, you seem like a pretty decent bloke as well. It's infuriating that we can't have an actual, constructive discussion about anything.

Rant over.

Nah we need controversial characters to bring back the flavor of the good old days, remember?

 

[OverratedSanity]

I just wish I could see Roach bowls for an extended period without getting injured again. Imo the guy is quality, or atleast was a year or two ago when I last saw him. I considered him arguably the best fast bowling prospect in the world at one point and his performances certainly hinted at great things in the future. Hopefully he's still the same bowler.

 

[Beamer]

Not a lame question at all Hurricane..I think the crowds should be decent for this series..especially in the evening when people have finished work... there's this peception us caribbean folks "aren't into cricket anymore" and "other sports have taken the hearts of the youngsters" etc but i think it's way overblown...you listen to the cricket radio and TV shows and people are still passionate all over the region..then you have packed houses for the CPL games and there was good crowds in our last home series vs Zimbabwe...so i expect some decent crowds so turn up...but of course like any fanbase you can lose inspiration when your team lose alot..but that hasn't been the case at home recently so it's all good .

Agreed. Also, I personally know of a few regulars that were boycotting West Indies matches at Sabina Park and QPO whilst Sammy and the St Lucian cabal were in charge. I don't think those outside West Indies cricket understand the depth of the division the Sammy era caused amongst West Indians. I think this summer is extremely important and an opportunity to recapture peoples enthusiasm. The return of Roach and Taylor and the chance to view Southee and Boult should aid this as West Indians love good fast bowling. It is also why I want them to select Blackwood at some point, a dynamic young batsman is exactly what the public needs to see after such a bad year.

 

[viriya]

Looks like I'm late to the party..

A lot of the arguments for/against a player end up picking apart stats from a small sample size.. Roach, Southee and Boult haven't played enough to make a clear assessment on who is better imo - I think it would be clearer 2 years from now.. They are all young (24/25 years old, 20-30 Tests), and their records don't point to one being clearly better than the other.. Southee has improved and found another level recently but he's also played the most tests of the three so he's had more opportunities.. All three have a lot of potential:
Roach vs Southee
Roach vs Boult

Chanderpaul vs Taylor is more interesting. Chanderpaul obviously has the better career record, but Taylor has found another level in his batting recently - I think they are at a similar level in terms of current form:
Chanderpaul vs Taylor

Should be a close series especially with WI playing at home and NZ's weakness vs spin (assuming Narine figures out Test cricket).

 

[hendrix]

nice to have a neutral take on it.

 

[Prince EWS]

nice to have a neutral take on it.

Oh I see how it is.