***Official*** New Zealand in the West Indies 2014

[WindieWeathers]

Really big turnaround in selection and preparation policies from the WI it seems. Good to see.

Yeah things are really starting to improve Hendrix both on the domestic and international level. There was a big fuss after the India and NZ shambles and changes were desperately needed. These sort of camps and warm up matches should have happened before we went to India but they couldn't be bothered and we paid for it...while domestically there our class structure has been drastically improved and our players will be playing more games per season with franchize sides instead of the usual "island" stuff. School teams will also be linked to club sides to have a clear pathway from youth to senior set-ups...so it's all starting to come together now.

 

[Howsie]

Excuse me? Erm Roach was named man of the series IN SRI-LANKA...getting 15 wickets in two tests. He was also very good in England in the two tests he played in when we toured there in 2012 and also made his name giving Australia a tough time away in 2009. So his efforts away from home aren't in doubt imo. Also like i mentioned before Boult failed in SA, Bang and India where wickets are concerned...while Roach has a better average than Southee having played test cricket for a similar amount of time....that has to stand for something.

He's played Sri Lanka three times in Sri Lanka, and has taken 10 wickets. Take out his one 5fer (you know how you did that for Boult yesterday) he didn't really do much else. Don't know what stats your looking at.

And no it doesn't count for too much. Southee was terrible for much of his earlier career. He's improved tremendously over the past 2 years and is now one of the best test bowlers in the world. Roach on the other hand has been sitting on the couch doing SFA.

 

[Bahnz]

Career averages are a poor statistic to base your argument on. Southee was turd when he first arrived on the scene, but these days he's a completely different bowler and has been for a long time. His career average has dropped by 14 runs since he last set foot in the Caribbean, and all signs are that it will continue to drop further.

 

[WindieWeathers]

He's played Sri Lanka three times in Sri Lanka, and has taken 10 wickets. Take out his one 5fer (you know how you did that for Boult yesterday) he didn't really do much else. Don't know what stats your looking at.

And no it doesn't count for too much. Southee was terrible for much of his earlier career. He's improved tremendously over the past 2 years and is now one of the best test bowlers in the world. Roach on the other hand has been sitting on the couch doing SFA.

Roach didn't bowl in the third test because it was washed out while we were batting. Also Southee's poor run early in his career is hardly Roach's fault is it? the bottom line is Kemar has been largely consistent throghout his whole career..so his average is no fluke. One could easily speculate that Southee has had a purple patch and will return to his old ways..at the end of the day Kemar has a better record so far and if he stays fit over the next few years i don't see Southee's average going below Roach's.

 

[Howsie]

Roach didn't bowl in the third test because it was washed out while we were batting. Also Southee's poor run early in his career is hardly Roach's fault is it? the bottom line is Kemar has been largely consistent throghout his whole career..so his average is no fluke. One could easily speculate that Southee has had a purple patch and will return to his old ways..at the end of the day Kemar has a better record so far and if he stays fit over the next few years i don't see Southee's average going below Roach's.

And they took away five of his wickets that test too?

Perhaps Southee regresses back to that not near ready 19 year old test bowler, pretty unlikely but you never know. Doesn't change the fact that right now Southee is far and away a better test bowler than Roach.

 

[WindieWeathers]

Career averages are a poor statistic to base your argument on. Southee was turd when he first arrived on the scene, but these days he's a completely different bowler and has been for a long time. His career average has dropped by 14 runs since he last set foot in the Caribbean, and all signs are that it will continue to drop further.

His improvement doesn't automatically mean he's a better pacer than Roach though does it? records are there for a reason..and it seems people just want to see what they want to see. First people think Williamson is better than Bravo despite Bravo averaging 44 while Kane averages 36. Then some claim Roach is "nowhere near Southee" even though Kemar averages 27 and Southee averages 30...it just doesn't make sense to me.

 

[hendrix]

Do you think Roach is better than James Anderson?

Obvious question is obvious.

 

[WindieWeathers]

And they took away five of his wickets that test too?

Perhaps Southee regresses back to that not near ready 19 year old test bowler, pretty unlikely but you never know. Doesn't change the fact that right now Southee is far and away a better test bowler than Roach.

Well the stats suggest otherwise.. and at the end of the day that's all it comes down to regardless of any bias either of us holds in this debate.

Also as much as you want to pull me up about the "five wickets" it's not half as bad as you suggesting Boult has a better away record when that's clearly not the case.

 

[WindieWeathers]

Do you think Roach is better than James Anderson?

Obvious question is obvious.

In asian conditions yes...on fast tracks you'd give Jimmy the advantage but his age is catching up with him.

 

[Dan]

His improvement doesn't automatically mean he's a better pacer than Roach though does it? records are there for a reason..and it seems people just want to see what they want to see. First people think Williamson is better than Bravo despite Bravo averaging 44 while Kane averages 36. Then some claim Roach is "nowhere near Southee" even though Kemar averages 27 and Southee averages 30...it just doesn't make sense to me.

Have you watched Tim Southee bowl in the last 18 months to two years? He's nothing like the bowler he was at age 19; it's not that anyone is holding consistent performance against Roach -- they're simply not holding early-career Southee against current-day Southee.

Statistics don't tell the entire story; an apt comparison would be Stuart Broad -- picked early and on potential, was pretty mediocre until he settled in the side and improved, and is now one of the best bowlers in the world.


As a side note, it's interesting that Boult underperforming in Bangladesh is a massive mark against him, in spite of his absolutely gun career record, whereas Sunil Narine's underperformance in the same country is representative of nothing, despite his mediocre career record. And this with Bangladesh being more helpful for spinners than seamers (by 'more helpful', I mean 'less akin to a highway', obvs).

 

[Howsie]

Well the stats suggest otherwise.. and at the end of the day that's all it comes down to regardless of any bias either of us holds in this debate.

Also as much as you want to pull me up about the "five wickets" it's not half as bad as you suggesting Boult has a better away record when that's clearly not the case.

Eughh. Didn't you just say the other day Ramdin < Watling because he's averaged 45 the last couple of years, nevermind that Watling's career average ****s all over Ramdin's?

 

[Prince EWS]

Eughh. Didn't you just say the other day Ramdin < Watling because he's averaged 45 the last couple of years, nevermind that Watling's career average ****s all over Ramdin's?

As a side note, it's interesting that Boult underperforming in Bangladesh is a massive mark against him, in spite of his absolutely gun career record, whereas Sunil Narine's underperformance in the same country is representative of nothing, despite his mediocre career record. And this with Bangladesh being more helpful for spinners than seamers (by 'more helpful', I mean 'less akin to a highway', obvs).

WW has improved heaps a member but this is definitely still a great annoyance with his posts. Each debate in isolation looks fine but the gross inconsistencies in his thought processes show up the fact that his opinions guide his ideas rather than the other way around. What guides his opinions seems to be something else entirely.

 

[Dan]

This is such a ***y, ***y spell of bowling in Subcontinental conditions. Seeing a video like this is why I don't bother with "oh Southee/Boult can't bowl overseas" arguments. They bloody well can. Southee the better of the two, by a fair distance, but Boult's no mug.

 

[Dan]

What guides his opinions seems to be something else entirely.

Go on..

 

[Howsie]

Also as much as you want to pull me up about the "five wickets" it's not half as bad as you suggesting Boult has a better away record when that's clearly not the case.

As opposed to who sorry, Roach? Because even with your 'Boult can't bowl overseas' rubbish he stills averages 29 away from home. Roach on the other hand averages 38.

I guess that's the funny thing. Boult at 24, who has sometimes bowled really well without reward on overseas tours still averages under 30 away from home. It's scary I guess.

 

[WindieWeathers]

Have you watched Tim Southee bowl in the last 18 months to two years? He's nothing like the bowler he was at age 19; it's not that anyone is holding consistent performance against Roach -- they're simply not holding early-career Southee against current-day Southee.

Statistics don't tell the entire story; an apt comparison would be Stuart Broad -- picked early and on potential, was pretty mediocre until he settled in the side and improved, and is now one of the best bowlers in the world.

As a side note, it's interesting that Boult underperforming in Bangladesh is a massive mark against him, in spite of his absolutely gun career record, whereas Sunil Narine's underperformance in the same country is representative of nothing, despite his mediocre career record. And this with Bangladesh being more helpful for spinners than seamers (by 'more helpful', I mean 'less akin to a highway', obvs).

Whether spin or pace those tracks were dire in bang..it's also a common notion that spinners take much longer to mature than pacers..which is why you can see a 17 year old Ammir come out of nowhere and take wickets and not a spinner of a similar age do the same.

No-one is denying that Southee has improved tenfold of late...but to somehow suggest that he's improved so much that he's "way better than Roach" is simply madness imo.

 

[WindieWeathers]

Eughh. Didn't you just say the other day Ramdin < Watling because he's averaged 45 the last couple of years, nevermind that Watling's career average ****s all over Ramdin's?

But it's difficult to compare the two when they haven't played a similar amount of games tbh..and also you have to question the opposition Watling has got his runs against..Zimbabwe and Bang? not sure how many big runs have come against decent opposition.

 

[Dan]

Whether spin or pace those tracks were dire in bang..it's also a common notion that spinners take much longer to mature than pacers..which is why you can see a 17 year old Ammir come out of nowhere and take wickets and not a spinner of a similar age do the same.

No-one is denying that Southee has improved tenfold of late...but to somehow suggest that he's improved so much that he's "way better than Roach" is simply madness imo.

So why hold a lack of performance there against Boult, but not Narine? If you want to excuse Narine's underperformance there as being due to the tracks, then exactly the same logic applies to Boult; there's literally no way you can argue that you're not applying a double standard here. Maturing has nothing to do with it whatsoever.

So far we've seen the following arguments:
- Bravo > Williamson because of their respective career averages.
- Ramdin > Watling because of Ramdin's performance over the last 2 years, despite Watling's superior career average.
- Roach > Southee because of Roach's career average, despite Southee's superior performance over the last 2 years.
- Roach > Boult because of Roach's one successful overseas series, despite Boult's overseas stats being significantly better.

It's impossibly inconsistent.

 

[WindieWeathers]

As opposed to who sorry, Roach? Because even with your 'Boult can't bowl overseas' rubbish he stills averages 29 away from home. Roach on the other hand averages 38.

I guess that's the funny thing. Boult at 24, who has sometimes bowled really well without reward on overseas tours still averages under 30 away from home. It's scary I guess.

It's not "rubbish"..whether you think he "bowled well" or not it's simply the facts that in four of his last five series away from home the lad hasn't really done much. And his most recent away tour was against the 8th ranked team where even Tino Best looks like Macko!!...but Trent flopped.

 

[Bahnz]

His improvement doesn't automatically mean he's a better pacer than Roach though does it? records are there for a reason..and it seems people just want to see what they want to see. First people think Williamson is better than Bravo despite Bravo averaging 44 while Kane averages 36. Then some claim Roach is "nowhere near Southee" even though Kemar averages 27 and Southee averages 30...it just doesn't make sense to me.

You'd be justified in using career averages to say that Roach has had the better overall career than Southee to date, but career averages are far less relevant to the question of who is currently the better bowler. The Ramdin v Watling issue is a very good example of this.

ftr I would also disagree with the idea that Roach is "nowhere near Southee".

But it's difficult to compare the two when they haven't played a similar amount of games tbh..and also you have to question the opposition Watling has got his runs against..Zimbabwe and Bang? not sure how many big runs have come against decent opposition.

Watling was NZ's form batsman on their tour of South Africa (averaged 40+ iirc), played a match saving innings against India and was fine (though suffered from limited opportunities) against England.