Did Imran Khan use to do intense ball tempering frequently?

[hendrix]

i am not sure about Murali's case.. any way that was an entirely different matter. chucking..so not at all related to this .

"nobody would dare bash someone who has a clean chit"

...pretty closely related, as far as I'm concerned.

 

[rtramdas]

"nobody would dare bash someone who has a clean chit"

...pretty closely related, as far as I'm concerned.

because there might be some people who still feel he was not all that correct.

 

[Prince EWS]

I'd much rather have someone on my team practising "intense ball tampering" than someone who didn't and performed slightly worse, assuming the former actually got away with the whole time, which he did. So while it's an interesting conversation, it in no way actually detracts from Imran's quality as a cricketer even if he was guilty of the most "intense ball tampering" imaginable for mine. He took a calculated risk and it paid off entirely.

 

[harsh.ag]

why upset. that they didn't cheat and get the rewards?

rt, rt, rt.... If everyone's doing it, and getting away with it, and you don't do it, you're not "clean", you're stupid !! Try running a business in a "clean" way. You will go to ground faster than you can say "But section 420 of the Indian Penal Code says...."

 

[rtramdas]

rt, rt, rt.... If everyone's doing it, and getting away with it, and you don't do it, you're not "clean", you're stupid !! Try running a business in a "clean" way. You will go to ground faster than you can say "But section 420 of the Indian Penal Code says...."

ok... but from a personnel point of view i will always rate a player only lower than what his credentials actually reveals if achieved thru crooked means. in other words if such a player can't be penalised just because of the assumption that every body is doing it, then if any player who has a clean record has to be valued much higher .any way each to their own

 

[harsh.ag]

Good luck with that. Because the only way you know who was really clean is.... no. you don't!!

 

[G.I.Joe]

Good luck with that. Because the only way you know who was really clean is.... no. you don't!!

Good luck applying that principle to real life.

 

[rtramdas]

Good luck with that. Because the only way you know who was really clean is.... no. you don't!!

see there is another point of view to it.we all have to take into account the count of the factors associated with tampering or any evil doing or good doing for that matter. in this case these factors are incidents of tampering, no: of persons who alleges the accused of tampering, the intensity of tampering, legacy handed over etc etc.based on that we can assign value to the amount of guilt done.Imran himself says that all teams and all bowlers were in the habit of getting involved in this practise.but interestingly no body of his contemporary greats have ever personally admitted to doing. yes generalised statements have been heard .but other than that none.so based on these, can't we conclude that he was the worst while some of the others in general had done a few little things here or there?
might had

 

[Fusion]

then if any player who has a clean record has to be valued much higher .

Good luck with that. Because the only way you know who was really clean is.... no. you don't!!

Good luck applying that principle to real life.

Imran was never caught cheating and officially penalized. Hence, as per OP’s logic, he has a clean record. I don’t see much wrong in harsh.ag’s post. You don’t know for certain who cheats and who’s clean. Hence, everyone who hasn’t been officially caught is clean. But if one really believes that only those caught by the ICC have cheated and no one besides them ever tempered with the ball, then I’ve got a real nice piece of real estate to sell you in the Florida swamps.

 

[Valer]

I'd much rather have someone on my team practising "intense ball tampering" than someone who didn't and performed slightly worse, assuming the former actually got away with the whole time, which he did. So while it's an interesting conversation, it in no way actually detracts from Imran's quality as a cricketer even if he was guilty of the most "intense ball tampering" imaginable for mine. He took a calculated risk and it paid off entirely.

How about doping then? If a former great (or one of your players) came out and said he took more drugs than pharmstrong would that be okay too?

 

[harsh.ag]

How about doping then? If a former great (or one of your players) came out and said he took more drugs than pharmstrong would that be okay too?

But if you were a part of a sport where you knew everyone was doping and getting away with it, and that there was no way to win without doping, what real choice do you have if you want to win? Basically, the winner will be a doper. It could be you or some other guy.

 

[Prince EWS]

How about doping then? If a former great (or one of your players) came out and said he took more drugs than pharmstrong would that be okay too?

I don't think it'd be "okay". I don't think it's "okay" that Imran may have systematically cheated either. But I think in evaluating how good someone is/was at a sport, how effectively they managed to cheat is just part of the package, cynical as that may sound. In the case of cycling you can never just get away with doping and then admit it later as they retrospectively change the results. If they started overturning Pakistan series wins and stripping Imran of awards then it'd be fair to say he didn't get away with it afterall, but it was a calculated gamble that paid off (if true; I'm avoiding taking sides in the crux of the actual debate in the thread).

 

[hendrix]

see there is another point of view to it.we all have to take into account the count of the factors associated with tampering or any evil doing or good doing for that matter. in this case these factors are incidents of tampering, no: of persons who alleges the accused of tampering, the intensity of tampering, legacy handed over etc etc.based on that we can assign value to the amount of guilt done.Imran himself says that all teams and all bowlers were in the habit of getting involved in this practise.but interestingly no body of his contemporary greats have ever personally admitted to doing. yes generalised statements have been heard .but other than that none.so based on these, can't we conclude that he was the worst while some of the others in general had done a few little things here or there?
might had

He admits to it=he was the worst at it?

That makes no logical sense whatsoever.

 

[Victor Ian]

I had never heard of these allegations before. I don't think Imran is any worse for his admission as I suspect many players do this. I'd like to know who else is suspect in this regard. Can we taint all players who regularly get the ball to reverse swing? I remember them suggesting England's attack in 05 was largely based on lolly tampering. Is Steyn above suspicion? Are different balls harder to tamper with? Perhaps the Kookaburra is tamper proof and that is why Australia is useless at getting reverse swing.
Who would be the most suspicious bowlers with regard to altering the state of the ball?

 

[kyear2]

Baseball is different to cricket and cycling. In baseball there were no actual rules against doping, and records will not be vacated. But A-Rod is now suspended for an entire season despite never actually testing positive and players like Bonds, McGwire and Clemens may never make the Hall of Fame.

 

[Valer]

I don't think it'd be "okay". I don't think it's "okay" that Imran may have systematically cheated either. But I think in evaluating how good someone is/was at a sport, how effectively they managed to cheat is just part of the package, cynical as that may sound. In the case of cycling you can never just get away with doping and then admit it later as they retrospectively change the results. If they started overturning Pakistan series wins and stripping Imran of awards then it'd be fair to say he didn't get away with it afterall, but it was a calculated gamble that paid off (if true; I'm avoiding taking sides in the crux of the actual debate in the thread).

Actually most cyclists aren’t getting striped of wins for admitting to doping.

Fwiw I suppose I'd have to agree with letting done results count. I think you have to take a what happens is done view. Especially with a sport with a history of fixing, biased judges and one of the worlds worst drug testing schemes.

 

[rtramdas]

Imran was never caught cheating and officially penalized. Hence, as per OP’s logic, he has a clean record. I don’t see much wrong in harsh.ag’s post. You don’t know for certain who cheats and who’s clean. Hence, everyone who hasn’t been officially caught is clean. But if one really believes that only those caught by the ICC have cheated and no one besides them ever tempered with the ball, then I’ve got a real nice piece of real estate to sell you in the Florida swamps.

how drastically you twisted things !!! as per my logic he has a nasty record. my logic was based on the statements i put forward in my initial msg: .it was not based on whether he was officially penalised or not.based on the data i received from browsing, Imran was the worst of them all. w.r.t others i didn't get even any name other than some general statements.

 

[rtramdas]

He admits to it=he was the worst at it?

That makes no logical sense whatsoever.

did you deliberately avoid the statements of all the other humans i specified in my topic. is it Imran alone.there are some 11 names other than him... i can add few more like Qasim Omar etc etc.all these names including himself force me to think he was the worst of it.

 

[rtramdas]

I had never heard of these allegations before. I don't think Imran is any worse for his admission as I suspect many players do this. I'd like to know who else is suspect in this regard. Can we taint all players who regularly get the ball to reverse swing? I remember them suggesting England's attack in 05 was largely based on lolly tampering. Is Steyn above suspicion? Are different balls harder to tamper with? Perhaps the Kookaburra is tamper proof and that is why Australia is useless at getting reverse swing.
Who would be the most suspicious bowlers with regard to altering the state of the ball?

from what we get by thorough browsing in the net, the man with the most severest record would be Imran..

 

[Zinzan]

He did and a lot of posters here conveniently ignore it. I used to not want to believe it before I heard a past Pakistan player admit one game during a lunch break that not only did Imran tamper with the ball but he taught and encouraged them to do it as well.

So while others here rank him as one of the top 4 or 5 players of all time, I state my objections and am generally accused of bias but he was a blatant cheat and also while his overall record looks great his record away from home is not to an ATG status and his godly home record was probably somewhat assisted by what even he termed as "patriotic umpires".

So between the cheating, difference between home and away record (considering the dead pitches in Pakistan compared to the helpful ones in England during the era) I can't consider him a top 5 player of all time.
He was though still an ATG player and an inspirational if somewhat o er rated captain who played his heart out for his team and adaptable as showed how he reinvented himself after his injury and worked on his batting.

All that said, yet you still have him in your signature as being part of your greatest All-time XI ... Strange for someone you consider to be a blatant cheat and someone who's home record flatters to deceive.