ohnoitsyou
International Regular
Sorry but a serviceable allrounder doesn't really cut it when you're talking ATGs. That said he sustained his brilliance for long enough to still merit genuine discussion as an atg, and is absolutely gun in drafts.
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Ian Botham vs Kapil Dev
- Thread starter salman85
- Start date
in my eleven Kapil will be the topper closely followed by Botham and then by Hadlee. no question of taking a proven ball tamperor
OverratedSanity
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Imran was a renowned ladies man so calling him the emperor of tampons is quite accurate
Botham's peak period, even with some blips like influence of Packer player's absence, performance against WI etc is a highlight which deserves extra points just like Kapil's performance against WI when rating all rounders.but that doesn't mean his decline period can't be devalued.because it is Botham's own fault.
OverratedSanity
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Maybe the word serviceable sold him short. Here are his stats in 82-86:
Batting: Avg 31.36 with 3 hundreds, 11 fifties
Bowling: Avg 33 with 8 5wicket hauls
Those are actually good figures. For a guy who was in decline, that's a good return honestly. It's about as good as good all rounder like Flintoff managed over his whole career. His last 14 tests are the ones which absolutely destroy his averages:
Batting: Avg 20.57 with 1 fifty
Bowling: Avg: 58
Honestly think if he hadn't stupidly been selected for those last few tests he'd have gone down as an equal of Imran. Not trying to say that the bad portions should be removed, but I'm just saying that he was only absolutely useless towards the very end. Initially, he was in a league of his own, then he declined to being about as good as a Flintoff and finally became worthless.
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Kapil is very underrated.his career record is full of highlights like test str: rate of 80, best one day player of the so called FAB 4, best fielder, world cup win as captain ,best all rounder in 83 and 92 world cups, lone quality bowler of the side etc etc. yet because of the conventional thinking he still remains under rated.
I said Kapil's best with the bat was the best of the 4 and that overall Botham did most of the 4 with the bat. If you disagree that is fine. If you think there is ''no question'', that is also fine
OverratedSanity's post pretty much echoes my sentiments. Another point in favour of Botham is that he turned up far more often against England's most bitter rivals than Kapil did against India's most bitter rivals. Of course Kapil's WI performances do negate this somewhat. He even scored a century against *THAT FOUR* if I am not mistaken in their own backyard (IIRC).
And I love how a bloke just posted the averages of Hadlee and Kapil Dev. Care to post the full stats....in particular the stats IN WI. Thanks
atleast 'tampons' is not associated with the game but 'tamper' certainly is...
harsh.ag
Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
One way to look at this might be from the view point of asterisks. Kapil has positive asterisks against his record: Bowled mostly in India on dust bowls with no pace partner. Bowled more overs per innings for longer stretched than almost any other bowler. Batted lower down the order (maybe for good reasons), but still managed to score 8 centuries. Played very well against Windies in Windies as well. 1983 World Cup effort. Negative asterisk would be that he was a careless (perhaps undisciplined) batsman.
In case of Botham there are a few negative asterisks. Peak came during a Packer-ravaged international scene. After peak, became merely an okay all rounder with occasional flashes, and finally a ravaged shadow of his former self. Struggled against Windies. Not good with captaincy.
Personally, I think there is almost nothing between them. Kapil I think had just a bit more heart. But Botham's peak was awesome. And he was just a bit better with the bat.
In case of Botham there are a few negative asterisks. Peak came during a Packer-ravaged international scene. After peak, became merely an okay all rounder with occasional flashes, and finally a ravaged shadow of his former self. Struggled against Windies. Not good with captaincy.
Personally, I think there is almost nothing between them. Kapil I think had just a bit more heart. But Botham's peak was awesome. And he was just a bit better with the bat.
Fuller Pilch
Hall of Fame Member
Re Stats they are known as the big 4 allrounders of the 80s (not "allrounders who started in the early/late 70s and finished in the earlyish 90s", or "blokes against the WI in the WI") so here are their decade-long statistics. I'm not an IK fanboy, but these are pretty incredible (up there with Sobers) figures:
Stats in the 1980s:
Imran
filtered 1980-1989 54 2430 135* 44.18 5 256 8/58 19.12 18 19 0 25.05
Hadlee
filtered 1980-1989 53 2040 151* 30.90 2 289 9/52 19.28 28 23 0 11.62
Botham
filtered 1980-1989 75 4051 208 33.75 10 258 8/103 32.39 15 79 0 1.35
Kapil
filtered 1980-1989 80 3353 163 30.76 5 272 9/83 29.54 16 44 0 1.21
Stats in the 1980s:
Imran
filtered 1980-1989 54 2430 135* 44.18 5 256 8/58 19.12 18 19 0 25.05
Hadlee
filtered 1980-1989 53 2040 151* 30.90 2 289 9/52 19.28 28 23 0 11.62
Botham
filtered 1980-1989 75 4051 208 33.75 10 258 8/103 32.39 15 79 0 1.35
Kapil
filtered 1980-1989 80 3353 163 30.76 5 272 9/83 29.54 16 44 0 1.21
Migara
International Coach
Highly debatable. He was not even the best in SAF. Adrian Kuiper and Peter Kirsten were around at same time. There was a third whom I cannot recollect at top of my memory.Procter was better than all of em
what about Kapil being the better one day player by a convincing margin?what about his mammoth str: RATE of 80+,what about his much better longevity in both forms of the game?
harsh.ag
Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
Clive Rice?
Coronis
International Coach
Ha.
Rice was probably his better/equal with the bat, but wasn't in the same class as a bowler, more in the Miller mold of low average, low wpm.
ohnoitsyou
International Regular
Migara is such a dire troll
harsh.ag
Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
Take the drama down a notch, dude. I didn't say it was an exhaustive list.
kiwiviktor81
International Debutant
I don't understand the idea of measuring Botham at his peak.
You might as well say that Anil Kumble is the greatest bowler of all-time, with the qualification that his peak begins and ends in the innings he took all 10 wickets.
That's clearly ridiculous, but the question for me is, if you are going to choose a period of a player's best performance, how small does one draw the scope?
Interestingly, if you take Daniel Vettori's best five years (2005-2009) he averaged 45 with the bat and 31 with the ball.
You might as well say that Anil Kumble is the greatest bowler of all-time, with the qualification that his peak begins and ends in the innings he took all 10 wickets.
That's clearly ridiculous, but the question for me is, if you are going to choose a period of a player's best performance, how small does one draw the scope?
Interestingly, if you take Daniel Vettori's best five years (2005-2009) he averaged 45 with the bat and 31 with the ball.
here the same.. peak is a highlight and hence it deserves to be given more marks just as say 'Kapil's performance against WI'.but it can't be all the thing