Ian Botham vs Kapil Dev

[Jacknife]

PEWS generally has a decent analysis. It would be interesting to ask him why he rates Kapil above Botham

He's already given his opinion here mate:

Well, I voted for Kapil.

I believe that during Botham's peak, he was the best cricketer the world has ever seen. However, his peak just didn't last long enough for mine and the rest of his career severely drags him down. When I judge a cricketer I take his whole career into account - including the longevity of said career - and when I compare cricketers I ask myself "which career would be more valuable across a cross-section of Test sides?" - and in this case, I'd take Kapil's career. Achieving a mystically high level of skill and performance over a relatively short term is not, IMO, more valuable than achieving a level a little below that for a longer period, even though it may be more impressive.

 

[smash84]

I may have missed it earlier......not sure.....

thanks for posting it

 

[Hit Wicket]

Thanks Contra for clarifying the intent of my post - perhaps Sanz can now bother saying something about the rest of my post.

What's wrong especially on a forums such as these, thinking and talking about the reasons why he failed against the WI because personally I can't see it being down to him not being good enough, he played against bowlers who were as good or as near to the WI pacers and had success, so why was it. It's something that's been talked about by cricket commentators and reporters for years, so I don't see why it should stop now. You may not like them or think their 'half baked or made up' but that's just your opinion just like it's other people's why the guy may have had problems against them.

No other team had a bowling attack even comparable to the West Indies during those times. Australia came closest, but there was still a huge gap between them and the West Indies. Pakistan did in the mid to late 80s with the advent of Akram and revival of Qadir to add to Imran, but that was only for a couple of years after which Qadir and Imran declined and I don't think Botham played a series with Pakistan when they had a top notch attack.

As for the batting, once again West Indies were clearly the best batting side in the world - there were individual players in other teams like Gavaskar, Chappell, and Miandad who were top notch, but as a collective unit there was simply nothing in the range of the West Indies. Sorry, but I can't agree that Botham faced a comparable unit like the West Indies and did well against that unit.

 

[Hit Wicket]

BTW, and this has little to do with the Botham vs. Kapil thread, but since I couldn't find any appropriate thread about Kapil here is an example of the kind of workload Kapil had to bear :

3rd Test: India v West Indies at Ahmedabad, Nov 12-16, 1983 | Cricket Scorecard | ESPN Cricinfo

Bowled 31 overs on the trot as a fast (or fast medium) bowler - can anyone come up with an example of Botham captaining the side and leading from the front the way Kapil did here? Today, pace bowlers go out for potty breaks every 5 overs.

 

[fredfertang]

Tom Richardson's performance here beats that, though he wasn't captain of course, and overs were only five balls - worth noting though

 

[Hit Wicket]

Tom Richardson's performance here beats that, though he wasn't captain of course, and overs were only five balls - worth noting though

Certainly worth more than Botham's contribution against the best team of his era and not "resigning"!

 

[Sanz]

BTW, and this has little to do with the Botham vs. Kapil thread, but since I couldn't find any appropriate thread about Kapil here is an example of the kind of workload Kapil had to bear :

3rd Test: India v West Indies at Ahmedabad, Nov 12-16, 1983 | Cricket Scorecard | ESPN Cricinfo

Bowled 31 overs on the trot as a fast (or fast medium) bowler - can anyone come up with an example of Botham captaining the side and leading from the front the way Kapil did here? Today, pace bowlers go out for potty breaks every 5 overs.

Are you comparing Kapil to Today's bowlers or to Botham ? If the comparison is with Botham then Botham's career is filled with efforts like that, not saying that Kapil didn't have many such performances but just that if Kapil was a work horse but there isn't a single player whose work load was bigger than Botham's.

Here is a test match where he bowled 80 overs :-

1st Test: Australia v England at Perth, Dec 14-19, 1979 | Cricket Scorecard | ESPN Cricinfo

Here is another one where he first bowled 40 overs then came on to bat @ no. 6 and batted for more than 45 overs.
3rd Test: Australia v England at Melbourne, Feb 1-6, 1980 | Cricket Scorecard | ESPN Cricinfo

 

[Sanz]

Thanks Contra for clarifying the intent of my post - perhaps Sanz can now bother saying something about the rest of my post.

No, I still do not get it. Are you saying that Botham is the better allrounder ? If Yes then you are contradicting yourself by voting for Kapil in this poll.

 

[Sanz]

Certainly worth more than Botham's contribution against the best team of his era and not "resigning"!

That is certainly disrespectful to accuse Botham of "resigning" against the WI. It is a mere co-incidence that Botham's stats were low against WI, just like it is a coincidence that Kapil's avg. against NZ are poor.

 

[The Sean]

Tom Richardson's performance here beats that, though he wasn't captain of course, and overs were only five balls - worth noting though

Ha ha, knew which match that was going to be before I even clicked on the link. I've always loved Honest Tom's response when asked about the proposed increase from five balls in an over to six: "Give me TEN!"

 

[rtramdas]

easy choice... Kapil all the way . reasons ....

1. much longevity than Botham in both forms of the game.

2.easily the better one day player both in batting and bowling

3. slightly better test bowler considering the indian conditions and the little support he got

4.slightly better test batsman. of course this may raise a few eye brows considering that both were aggressive batsmen with Botham having 14 100s to Kapil's 8 and Botham having slightly better bat avg: .but Kapil's str: rate was a mammoth >80 against Botham's 60.Kapil took on the great Windies bowlers while Botham flopped.
if we consider >75 test scores Kapil has 15 such scores against Botham's 16 even though they differed in no: of 100s by 6.and in these 15 >75 scores he averaged 131.5 at a mammoth str: rate of 96.45 . for Botham the respective figures are 140.78 and 76.45 respectively. only a difference of 9.28 in avg: but difference of 20 w.r.t str: rate in favour of Kapil. that means Botham took 184.15 balls to score 140.78 runs where as Kapil took only 136.34 balls to score 131.5 runs.and what not 4 of these came against
rampant West Indies against Botham's '1 such score in home condition'.that all shows how effective a batsman was Kapil to score all these runs in the company of tail enders at a rapid pace.

5. Kapil was the better over all fielder. he could field any where. take catches just like the one he took in the 83 world cup to dismiss Viv.he was brilliant in the slips too.Botham was a specialist in the slips.

6. better captain by a fair distance.lead from the front in the 83 world cup .produced that brilliant 175 not out at a very critical stage of the tournament. he was the batsman of the tournament with a 60.6 avg: and 108.99 str: rate.he took 12 wkts too at 20.41 avg:.took the all important catch of Vivl. and he was easily the best all rounder in the 1992 world cup too for that matter , though past his prime.he led India to series victory in England and some notable performances too with a comparatively weaker team at his disposal.

so Kapil wins for me by a fair distance.this is not even a contest

 

[grecian]

easy choice... Kapil all the way . reasons ....

1. much longevity than Botham in both forms of the game.

2.easily the better one day player both in batting and bowling

3. slightly better test bowler considering the indian conditions and the little support he got

4.slightly better test batsman. of course this may raise a few eye brows considering that both were aggressive batsmen with Botham having 14 100s to Kapil's 8 and Botham having slightly better bat avg: .but Kapil's str: rate was a mammoth >80 against Botham's 60.Kapil took on the great Windies bowlers while Botham flopped.
if we consider >75 test scores Kapil has 15 such scores against Botham's 16 even though they differed in no: of 100s by 6.and in these 15 >75 scores he averaged 131.5 at a mammoth str: rate of 96.45 . for Botham the respective figures are 140.78 and 76.45 respectively. only a difference of 9.28 in avg: but difference of 20 w.r.t str: rate in favour of Kapil. that means Botham took 184.15 balls to score 140.78 runs where as Kapil took only 136.34 balls to score 131.5 runs.and what not 4 of these came against
rampant West Indies against Botham's '1 such score in home condition'.that all shows how effective a batsman was Kapil to score all these runs in the company of tail enders at a rapid pace.

5. Kapil was the better over all fielder. he could field any where. take catches just like the one he took in the 83 world cup to dismiss Viv.he was brilliant in the slips too.Botham was a specialist in the slips.

6. better captain by a fair distance.lead from the front in the 83 world cup .produced that brilliant 175 not out at a very critical stage of the tournament. he was the batsman of the tournament with a 60.6 avg: and 108.99 str: rate.he took 12 wkts too at 20.41 avg:.took the all important catch of Vivl. and he was easily the best all rounder in the 1992 world cup too for that matter , though past his prime.he led India to series victory in England and some notable performances too with a comparatively weaker team at his disposal.

so Kapil wins for me by a fair distance.this is not even a contest

Well I'd of probably voted for Kapil, but I think I'll vote Botham, now simply for the Kapil winning by a distance.

Welcome BTW

 

[Red]

5. Kapil was the better over all fielder. he could field any where. take catches just like the one he took in the 83 world cup to dismiss Viv.he was brilliant in the slips too.Botham was a specialist in the slips.

I disagree with a lot of your post, but I disagree with this the most. Botham was an outstanding fielder. Kapil was pretty mediocre.

Overall, I'd say Botham is a significantly better batsman, certainly more reliable and capable of batting top 6. Kapil was a lower order batsman. Botham's best bowling is probably the equal of Kapil's, although Kapil sustained his bowling over a longer period.

 

[Jassy]

As bowlers it is dead heat really. As batsmen, Botham did more despite Kapil being much better against the best. At his best with the bat, Kapil was probably the best of the 4. Still remember a geriatric Dev playing a young Donald with ease in the early 90s en route to a fine ton in PE. However, Botham just did more with the bat overall and showed up in both disciplines more often than Dev...and even Imran and Hadlee for that matter. Botham it is.

 

[Coronis]

As bowlers it is dead heat really. As batsmen, Botham did more despite Kapil being much better against the best. At his best with the bat, Kapil was probably the best of the 4. Still remember a geriatric Dev playing a young Donald with ease in the early 90s en route to a fine ton in PE. However, Botham just did more with the bat overall and showed up in both disciplines more often than Dev...and even Imran and Hadlee for that matter. Botham it is.

Botham was the best bat of the 4. No question.

 

[Red]

Botham was the best bat of the 4. No question.

This is correct.

 

[ohnoitsyou]

Skinny botham > dev > fat **** botham

 

[rtramdas]

once after i posted my msg 3 guys have put reply in defence of Botham. but the fun part of it is that no one stated valid reasons for this. i have stated crystal clear facts as per cricinfo.every one can verify. w.r.t fielding it is well accepted in cricketing circles that Kapil was the best all round fielder of the lot where as Botham was the best slip fielder and brilliant at that. so what is better? being best at slips only or being very good all round the field?

w.r.t test batting Botham leads Kapil only by 2.49 in avg: where as Kapil leads Botham in str: rate by a whopping 20.Kapil scored all these runs in the company of tail enders and i value this much.a batsman in the middle order is at much more advantage because his partners too contribute in easing out pressure. and i give a lot of value for performing against the best team of their era..
w.r.t one day batting no chance of even comparison. as far as i am concerned Kapil is way better because of crystal clear facts.

 

[rtramdas]

Well I'd of probably voted for Kapil, but I think I'll vote Botham, now simply for the Kapil winning by a distance.

Welcome BTW

thanks... you need not vote for any body for what i said.. you vote for some body based on your logic

 

[Red]

once after i posted my msg 3 guys have put reply in defence of Botham. but the fun part of it is that no one stated valid reasons for this. i have stated crystal clear facts as per cricinfo.every one can verify. w.r.t fielding it is well accepted in cricketing circles that Kapil was the best all round fielder of the lot where as Botham was the best slip fielder and brilliant at that. so what is better? being best at slips only or being very good all round the field?

w.r.t test batting Botham leads Kapil only by 2.49 in avg: where as Kapil leads Botham in str: rate by a whopping 20.Kapil scored all these runs in the company of tail enders and i value this much.a batsman in the middle order is at much more advantage because his partners too contribute in easing out pressure. and i give a lot of value for performing against the best team of their era..
w.r.t one day batting no chance of even comparison. as far as i am concerned Kapil is way better because of crystal clear facts.

Botham was a gun fielder everywhere. Unreal slipper and great in the outfield. Rocket arm.

There really isn't much between these two, but I think I just prefer Botham as a cricketer. Botham bats top 6. Kapil doesn't. That's the difference for me.