The ATG Teams General arguing/discussing thread

[harsh.ag]

Barry
Viv

Lara
Pollock
Sobers

Miller
Gilly

Warne (c)
Lillee
O'Reilly / Murali
Ambrose

 

[Coronis]

Cook
Warner
Sangakkara
Amla
Clarke*
de Villiers+
Chanderpaul
Philander
Johnson
Steyn
Ajmal

A team for this decade..

 

[The Battlers Prince]

Honestly think both DeV and Chanders would be happy to bat the other way around

 

[Coronis]

Honestly think both DeV and Chanders would be happy to bat the other way around

Yeah wasn't sure about them.

 

[Red]

[video]http://www.cricket.com.au/video/Best-player-who-never-played-T20[/video]



Think we've had this discussion but I like it (players from history who would've been good at 20/20 but never played it)...

- Garry Sobers
- Don Bradman
- Viv Richards
- Vic Trumper
- Clive Lloyd
- Keith Miller
- Kapil Dev
- Les Ames
- Joel Garner
- Bill O'Reilly
- Bishen Bedi

 

[kyear2]

On that theme, I was thinking the other day. Gayle is probably one of the best T20 openers, and certainly the best fr the W.I. If one is picking a world AT XI, not a Test XI, but an ATG world/ W.I XI, then the same way that we factor in W.G Grace's and Barry Richards FC records, or Sachin and Viv's odi records should one factor in Gayle's odi and T20 records to possible slip him in an XI over say Conrad Hunte?

Just thinking out loud.

 

[watson]

A T20 team all born during the 1930s. I think that they would thrash any team today even without experience;

01. Conrad Hunte
02. Trevor Goddard
03. Rohan Kanhai
04. Garry Sobers
05. Ted Dexter
06. Colin Bland
07. Farokh Engineer
08. Richie Benaud
09. Wes Hall
10. Fred Trueman
11. Brian Statham

 

[Dan]

1. Barry Richards
2. Charles Macartney (7)
3. Viv Richards
4. Keith Miller* (3)
5. Mike Procter (2)
6. Neil Harvey
7. Learie Constantine (6)
8. Godfrey Evans+
9. Bill O'Reilly (4)
10. Sydney Barnes (1)
11. Clarrie Grimmett (5)

12th Colin Bland

- Barnes/O'Reilly/Grimmett to confuse everyone with variations and being unique.
- Procter and Miller to bowl quick, accurately and with movement, as well as hit the ball a bloody long way.
- Richards/Macartney/Richards is a powerful top 3, with Macartney being very unorthodox.
- Harvey plays the finisher role, and every T20 teams needs a slightly egocentric Victorian.
- Learie Constantine to play the Darren Sammy role, only better.
- Godfrey Evans trumps Ames or Walcott to the 'keeper role, because a more athletic specialist would be more valuable than a batsman-keeper in this line-up #SpikeyThoughts
- Macartney, Viv, Harvey, Bland all remarkably good in the field. Procter no mug either, and Constantine would probably be an outfield specialist. Specialist bowlers are a little weak in that department though, I guess.

 

[watson]

Yeah, very nice team Dan. Like the Evans pick as he was a good attacking batsman as well as being dynamite behind the stumps. A lesser mortal simply wouldn't do with the likes of O'Reilly, Barnes, and Grimmett bowling. Jock Cameron could hit the ball a long way, and was a great stumper, so he might be in with a shout as well.

 

[Muloghonto]

A T20 team all born during the 1930s. I think that they would thrash any team today even without experience;

01. Conrad Hunte
02. Trevor Goddard
03. Rohan Kanhai
04. Garry Sobers
05. Ted Dexter
06. Colin Bland
07. Farokh Engineer
08. Richie Benaud
09. Wes Hall
10. Fred Trueman
11. Brian Statham

Its hard to rate these kind of things,since ultimately as they say, " the proof is in the pudding". Inherently, we just don't know if players of an era who have not played a format, how they'd do in it. Would Bradman have gone the way of Tendulkar/Gayle in T20s or would he have gone the way of Michael Clarke/Rahul Dravid ( ie, good but not extraordinary) ?
That being said, the one player who I'd pick in a heartbeat in these sort of speculative debates, for an ODI and 20/20 side, is Bapu Nadkarni.

Saw him once, bowling at Brabourne in the nets to who was a very young Praveen Amre ( Amre had only one weakness: genuine pace. Rest all categories, even in medium fast, he had ATG skills). Amre could not help but mis-hit the ball on attacking strokes, which for such a clean & crisp hitter of the ball, was revealing. What was more revealing, is Amre was 18, Nadkarni was in his mid 50s.

Not to mention, his economy rate in tests & FC is jaw-dropping.

 

[the big bambino]

Indeed. Neither will we ever know if Viv Richards or Clive Lloyd would have ever made it as T20 cricketers. Would they have unaccountably adopted personas at odds with the way they normally have played cricket? We'll never know and therefore not even able to conjecture...

The Nadkarni story reminds me of a similar experience Hutton had with Rhodes and then Grimmett. Both of whom he played with uncertainty and difficulty while facing them in the nets when both men were approaching 60 yrs of age. Hutton however had a blue riband record in overcoming bowlers like Lindwall, Miller, Johnston, O'Reilly, McCormick, Adcock, Tayfield, Valentine, Ramadhin and Heine not to mention the English bowlers he faced at county level. Whereas Amre's "ATG" skills brought him an average of 28 against the medium fast/spin based attack of Sri Lanka who opened their bowling innings with Gurisinha in one of those tests.

 

[Muloghonto]

Indeed. Neither will we ever know if Viv Richards or Clive Lloyd would have ever made it as T20 cricketers. Would they have unaccountably adopted personas at odds with the way they normally have played cricket? We'll never know and therefore not even able to conjecture...

You can conjecture all you want. But it does not stand up to comparisons to reality. It is not about adapting their natural personnas, it is about adaptation, period. Not every successful ODI player has translated into a successful T20 player either.

The Nadkarni story reminds me of a similar experience Hutton had with Rhodes and then Grimmett. Both of whom he played with uncertainty and difficulty while facing them in the nets when both men were approaching 60 yrs of age. Hutton however had a blue riband record in overcoming bowlers like Lindwall, Miller, Johnston, O'Reilly, McCormick, Adcock, Tayfield, Valentine, Ramadhin and Heine not to mention the English bowlers he faced at county level. Whereas Amre's "ATG" skills brought him an average of 28 against the medium fast/spin based attack of Sri Lanka who opened their bowling innings with Gurisinha in one of those tests.

Amre was a great 'could've been' and many a great player has had rough beginnings. Had Kallis been discarded at the same stage as Amre, he'd have ended with sub 20 batting and over 40 bowling average.
It is intrinsically facile to compare a well established player with one who didnt play much. Having ATG accomplishments and having ATG skills are two different things, the latter i do not expect many on this forum to be able to identify simply because most here lack any real cricketing experience. That being said, the former is a product of the latter, compounded with opportunity, time and motivation.

 

[fredfertang]

Having ATG accomplishments and having ATG skills are two different things, the latter i do not expect many on this forum to be able to identify simply because most here lack any real cricketing experience. That being said, the former is a product of the latter, compounded with opportunity, time and motivation.

I haven't a clue what you're on about mate, but its a cracking quote

 

[Red]

I haven't a clue what you're on about mate, but its a cracking quote

Here's my guess from his quote. "If you haven't played the level of cricket I have, you can't tell the difference between someone with ATG skills and someone who has accomplished ATG type things.".

 

[the big bambino]

Look Monk has basically nailed it. Its a way of saying one's opinion is superior to any other; just bcos it is. so there. People like that are usually up themselves something chronic.

 

[Eds]

Essentially, he's an arse.

 

[the big bambino]

Essentially. Its also funny that he makes a distinction btwn ATG skills and accomplishments. He could only fairly raise the distinction if I misunderstood his initial post. I did not. He mentioned ATG skills. I responded by referring to ATG skills. Quite why he then tried to explain a point as if I had misquoted him is just bizarre.

 

[ohnoitsyou]

Funniest thing is that theres probably quite a few on here who have played at a higher level than him.

 

[Muloghonto]

Essentially. Its also funny that he makes a distinction btwn ATG skills and accomplishments. He could only fairly raise the distinction if I misunderstood his initial post. I did not. He mentioned ATG skills. I responded by referring to ATG skills. Quite why he then tried to explain a point as if I had misquoted him is just bizarre.

You'r kidding me, right ?

Your comment was to deride Amre's ATG skills by pointing out how he failed against a fairly ordinary attack, while providing an example of Hutton having a similar experience. Ie, you brought in a player of ATG credentials on the basis of his ATG record. Since you are not old enough to've seen Hutton extensively, you obviously cannot be considered credible if you strictly brought up Hutton on the basis of his skills.
I pointed it out to you, with example such as Kallis- that early career/short career means nothing really in evaluating a player because they could've been just the same, so much greater or worse.

You didnt misquote me, your conjencture of Hutton's skills as a counterpoint to my assessment of Amre was in error.

 

[Muloghonto]

Funniest thing is that theres probably quite a few on here who have played at a higher level than him.

There probably are a few FC players here, though quite a few would not be what I'd expect of this site. But it is possible, i suppose.